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Is this Wyandotte Chert??

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  • Is this Wyandotte Chert??

    I picked this chert up the other day while I was hunting. Greg has a lithic id project he's posted, which has a variety of chert types with pictures. Wyandotte was the closest I could find in the East Central section.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Wyandotte Chert 2.jpg
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ID:	240945Click image for larger version

Name:	Wyandotte Chert.jpg
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ID:	240946 ...Chuck
    Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

  • #2
    Check this out Chuck, I think the material you are finding is apart of the St. Louis (St. Louis, Cobden, Dongola, Kentucky Blue) formation which is almost undiscernable from the Ste Genevieve limestone (which includes Wyandotte and Sonora)....

    Chert type varieties are derived from singular static locations on the landscape where
    that particular variant was first described or observed. This is common practice in all fields
    of science. However, the spatial component of our nominal chert type attributes sometimes
    limits our understanding of prehistoric procurement and acquisition strategies. Varieties of
    Ste. Genevieve and Upper St. Louis chert are visually similar creating inaccurate type
    identification, provenance data and potentially skews our behavioral models.
    Ste. Genevieve/Monteagle chert (aka Wyandotte, Indiana Hornstone, Harrison County,
    Sonora, Hopkinsville, Fredonia) is found within the Ste. Genevieve limestone formation or
    the Monteagle depending upon which geologic quadrangle map you are referencing. The
    formation extends across much of the Interior Low Plateau physiographic region from
    central Indiana through Kentucky, Tennessee, northern Alabama, and possible into
    northwestern Georgia. There are two main type sites for Ste. Genevieve chert. The first is
    the Wyandotte cave site where evidence for prehistoric procurement is well documented.
    The second main type locality is in the vicinity of Sonora, KY which
    collector/knapper/archaeologist lore has marked as the source for excellent tool stone and has
    become entrenched in the literature.
    Upper St. Louis chert (aka St. Louis, Cobden, Dongola, Kentucky Blue) forms within
    the Upper St. Louis limestone formation exposed over much of Kentucky, central Tennessee,
    northern Alabama and possibly small portions of north western Georgia. Upper St. Louis
    chert is commonly thought to have been prehistorically exploited along the TN/KY border.
    However, visual similarities with Ste. Genevieve chert may lead to misidentification of
    source.
    The geologic occurrence of both the Ste. Genevieve and Upper St. Louis chert types
    covers a large geographic area spanning portions of six states and over 600 linear kilometers.
    Therefore it is necessary to not only characterize these chert types by parent formation but
    also by outcrop/deposit within the parent formation.



    Not_Indiana_Hornstone_Spectral_Source_C.pdf
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Kyflintguy; 02-14-2017, 09:33 PM.
    Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

    Comment


    • Scorpion68
      Scorpion68 commented
      Editing a comment
      Josh - Looking at their distribution map of the Ste Genevieve (Wyandotte) and Upper St. Louis (Kentucky Blue) - I'm quite a bit farther to the East than either of the formations. It's interesting because some of the stuff I'm finding is not from spalls or left overs. I've found some fairly large hunks with no apparent signs of workmanship on them. Could there be deposits of the St. Louis chert in this area that has not been fully exposed yet??

    • Kyflintguy
      Kyflintguy commented
      Editing a comment
      Chuck my guess is most probable an unknown source of St. Louis in your area, there is much that yet to be understood about the exact distribution of those materials. Although if you see the map there are also a few green spots areas in Tennessee that have been identified as Ste Genevieve... So I think the only way to acuratley know for sure would be to have a spectral analysis done to pinpoint which geologic formation is outcropping in your particular area or talk to someone who has already done such research in your area. But really they are so similar that if it was me Id be fine with going with "hornstone" , which is what most collectors do. But if you wished to seek further answers I would try contacting the author of the research paper I shared or even a local archaeologist or geologist to get a more thorough answer... Im fairly confident you are finding something within that Hornstone tree though as opossed to Ft. Payne which is also common in middle Tennessee. You never know your input may further the professional communities understanding of that lithic as well... Well if your much further east than the blue on the map you must not be to far from me. Lol We may have to get together sometime for a cool drink and a nice breeze...

    • Scorpion68
      Scorpion68 commented
      Editing a comment
      Hey Josh - I live about 6 miles out of Byrdstown off rte 325. Actually Moodyville is closer cause it's just down the mountain. We often shop in Monticello, Ky. I can see Static, Ky from my back porch. I think getting together would be a great idea but lets wait til the weather warms a bit and I'll take ya on a walk on the logging road.

  • #3
    Thanks Josh and the link is sweet.
    Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

    Comment


    • #4
      Here is the contact information for the author of the research paper I shared, never know he may be able to help you out from photos alone...


      Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

      Comment


      • #5
        Bear with me Chuck, but here's the last thread wherein me and Sailorjoe had a small debate about the type of material you have been finding. Joe suggests Ft payne, as I have leaned more towards Hornstone. Here's that thread

        Heh! Heh! Well we had a real gully-washer here last night but it came with heavy winds, gusting up to 60 MPH. Lots of debris on the ground but after that


        Ive been doing some more researching on academia, and the author of the first paper I shared here in this thread also did write up on identifying ft Payne chert... Here is that article.



        You can see in the photos what he describes as Ft Payne isn't far off what your showing...

        I also found another good paper on identifying blue and grey ft payne.




        This shows more of what I have been used to identifying as Ft. Payne.
        ​​​​​​​So Im back to square one on your material, Im still looking though and I may try to get some help this evening from a neighbor. To be continued...
        ​​​​​​​
        Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

        Comment


        • Scorpion68
          Scorpion68 commented
          Editing a comment
          I did some checking, comparing maps with article you sent ("Not Indiana Hornstone") and I find that I'm located just on the Eastern edge of the area marking St. Louis chert and right about where the Upper St. Louis area mark is. So I guess that ain't gonna help this analysis any.

      • #6
        Hi Chuck. I'm not a geologist nor a mineralogist but just to let you know that what I'm about to say is not "completely off the wall" I will mention that while in college at Tenn.Tech I took a beginning geology course so I have a basic understanding of geology and geological processes and because of field trips we took in the local area which is about 40-50 miles south of your area I have a bit of personal experience in your general area. Pickett County and Putnam County have very similar geology. I know that the question you pose can involve several considerations and that making an ID on the geological types of chert by referring to photos and or geologic maps to make an identification may not be possible particularly for folks who are not experts such as probably everyone on this forum. Here are some considerations: The top of the Cumberland Plateau is capped by various layers of sandstone which can be many many feet thick. Below those sandstone formations are hundreds of feet of Mississippian Era limestone formations. These formations have many names depending on several factors. Below these limestone layers are a couple of different shale layers and then more limestone layers. In your area, the first layer of limestone encountered below the sandstone cap of the Plateau is the St. Genevieve, then the St. Louis, then Warsaw (maybe/maybe not be present) then Ft. Payne chert. Chert nodules occurs within both the St. Louis and St. Genevieve formations. These limestone and chert formations are not equally thick/deep. The uppermost formation (St. G) in many areas is the thinnest and the St. Louis formation is thicker and the Ft. Payne may be even thicker.Therefore, your local raw material for making chert tools can possibly come from three basic geological layers. If a stream with is source on the Plateau has cut into successive layers of rock the material that erodes out of a steep hillside weathers and moves downhill and may mingle such that in a mountainous stream bed it may be possible to find chert cobbles laying side by side that are from different geological sources. Regarding the chert on your mountain: If the top of your mountain is at Cumberland Plateau levels then what I mentioned about the layers may be true. If however your mountain is a hill separated from the main Cumberland Plateau and is not as high as the top of the Plateau as occurs on many hundreds of times from KY to AL on the Highland Rim and which local folks give the name of "so and so" Mt. then the top layer of sandstone may have eroded away or partially so. I know that Ft. Payne chert can occur in layers and as nodules. That may also be true for chert within the other formations. I just don't have personal experience to relate as I do with Ft. Payne. So in your area there may be several available cherts for making tools. Ft. Payne seems to be the most abundant in many areas of the eastern Highland Rim. So you might want to consider exactly where it was found and its proximity to local chert resources if it is important for you to know the name of the lithic. As I said that because of the complexities of your situation I don't think you can do it by looking at photos and maps unless you take a WAG and get lucky. I looked at your area with Google Maps and saw that local elevations can vary from 670 ft. at Dale Hollow lake to almost 1800 feet on the Plateau with many streams cutting into the Highland Rim and the Plateau. This makes for ample opportunity for different types of cherts to show up. The piece looks like it may have been in the early stages of reduction and on its way to becoming a tool. There may be a habitation site nearby. Or the guy may have picked it up on a hunt in the hills and while hunting he saw a deer or turkey and got his meat and forgot all about the rock he was toting around and didn't get home with it. I wouldn't make a guess at what you have. Could be what Josh suggests or it may not.

        Comment


        • Scorpion68
          Scorpion68 commented
          Editing a comment
          Hey Joe - I was just rereading your post, after my walkabout yesterday and finding more rocks. My front yard is at 1369' +/- 40' and the top of our hill or mountain is close to 1800'. Based on what I can find, I think we're right on the edge of what is considered the Cumberland Plateau. So, it could go either way. For some reason I always thought that chert formations ran in thick layers at various depths. I never considered nodules as part of a formation but rather a random occurrence. I guess I never considered that there has to be a main source for the nodules to occur. Anyway - I'm always running across this stuff on the mountain, especially in the creek beds. I'm still learning all this stuff and really appreciate the time and effort you put in trying to educate me and other viewers. Just wanted to take this opportunity to say thanks and let ya know that I really appreciate it. ..Chuck

      • #7
        Its not earth shattering that I can't id the chert in this piece, I just figured I'd tape my local resources to see what they thought. And I got a lot of thinking thrown my way. I went over Greg's lithic ID posts and saw that soooo many lithics are really unique and fairly easy to id so why not mine. That's when I learned that some of these lithics are so close in color, texture etc that it's almost impossible to tell them apart and many times, location may not be the deciding factor. My front porch is at about 1600ft elevation and we're considered to be on the Cumberland Plateau but then again maybe not. Anyway - I've learned alot and I think I'm gonna contact Josh's source and see if they can shed any further light. Like I said, it's not overly important that I know the lithic ID, it''s just that a lot of stuff I find seems to be (key word here is SEEMS) of the same stuff. I really appreciate all the interest this post has generated and believe it or not, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of members getting a similar education about lithic and their formations. ...Chuck
        Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

        Comment


        • #8
          Ok update for you Chuck. I decided to ask my neighbor Archaeologist what he thought about your material through email, he then (knowing Ryan is heavily involved with Tennessee Chert studies...) decided to forward my questions to Ryan and here is his response. Keep in mind he addressed this to Tracy assuming I was the one with the material.

          Nice looking materials. I’ve only sampled the Warsaw and Fort Payne cherts in Pickett county. I’d really like to get back there to sample some of the blue in your pictures.

          First, I hate to do things visually and second looking at pictures isn’t any better. Therefore, I’ll only make some suggestions.

          I’m fairly confident that all of the material in the photos are St. Louis (upper St. Louis) though it could also be the Ste. Genevieve/Monteagle (depending on which geoquad map you reference). The ste. Gen/Monteagle I’ve sampled off the flanks of the Cumberland Plateau are darker blue, small package sizes. The material almost looks black and translucent confusing folks with Knox chert. Therefore, I’d have to say that the chert is St. Louis. The white cortex, fine grained, blue/grey/tan color, really sets this apart from the Fort Payne. The Fort Payne is a dark mottled brown/tan/black sometimes white bedded material with a brown limestone cortex. Even the blue/tan, or as knappers call it the blueberry Fort Payne, shows lighter mottling.

          The angular light cortex on these pieces tells me that the material isn’t coming from a creek or alluvial context. As Jay Franklin (ETSU) and his students note, there is a lot of quarrying going on in the upland caves/rock shelters in the area. To find the source I’d get a geoquad map for the region and look to the uplands where you have the St. Louis and Monteagle/Ste. Gen. formations mapped. I bet the material is coming from one of these erosional interfaces where the parent limestone has weathered to clay and chunks of the material may be found in the saprolite.

          Again if you made me guess, I’d have to say St. Louis though the more I look at those translucent edges, I could lean to Ste. Gen/Monteagle.

          I’d love to do more sampling in your region this summer. Let me know if you’d like to check out this deposit of your friends and track down others.

          Jay Franklin would also be a great resource for your area.

          Thanks,
          Ryan


          Hope this helps!
          Last edited by Kyflintguy; 02-17-2017, 04:36 PM.
          Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

          Comment


          • sailorjoe
            sailorjoe commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Josh and Chuck. What he says makes sense to me. If this chert is weathering out of the upper hills then it is more than likely to be St G or St. L as opposed to Ft. Payne which is found at lower level of the Highland Rim closer to its intersect with the Nashville/Central Basin. Especially would this be true if not found as cobbles closer to Dale Hollow.

          • Scorpion68
            Scorpion68 commented
            Editing a comment
            Josh - I sent you a PM regarding Dr Ryan's comments. Let me know what you think.
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