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  • Color ? Some Points Have It All

    Color ? Some Points Have It All
    Posted by [Ralph Bryant]

    Moderator Note: this thread was first posted in 2011 but failed to transfer across to the new forum when the software was updated, and so has been re-created manually.

    Just registered here, although I have been involved in hunting and collecting Native American artifacts for over 45 years. Being recently retired, I now have more time to get involved on the forums, though I have been reading on some of them for several years. I thought I would start off with my first post showing one of my favorite points:

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    This is a classic Hayes Point from the Riley Site in Pike County, Arkansas, found in the late 1980s by Tommy Goff. It is one from several caches of these points recovered from Riley, and appears to be made of a piece of chert/siltstone from a terminal zone formation, showing indications of having a combination of Kiamichi, Battiest, and siltstone in colors ranging from red, orange, yellow, green, tan, brown, black, and a purple tint. The side of the point shown looks like a flame emanating from the stem upward toward the point, and is one of the most beautiful examples of any arrow point I have seen in 45+ years of hunting and collecting. It was deservedly given the name "The Eternal Flame" and measures 2 1/2 inches in length. Hope you enjoy the photo.


    Posted by [gregszybala]
    That is a beautiful point and welcome to the forum.

    Posted by [turkeytail]
    Welcome to the forum Ralph and YES...that one is as good as it gets! Mark.

    Posted by [Bone2stone]
    I am at a loss for words.
    Truly of of the most beautiful points ever.
    It does deserve the Eternal flame name.
    Bone2stone
    Your avitar pic ain't no slob!

    Posted by [Sam]
    That is truly remarkable. Thanks for posting this photo.

    Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
    The avatar photo is of a quartz crystal Hayes point from the same location, Riley in Pike County, Arkansas. I will have to post a larger photo, the flaking on that one is unreal considering the material.
    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

  • #2
    Posted by [greywolf22]
    Ralph
    I used to own a lot of the large Hayes that were papered by Perino as coming out off the Kidd Site and found by Tommy Goff. When I bought them they had Steve Granger as the one who had them papered by Perino. I phoned Perino because of Steves history and asked Greg about them and he said that they were good and they had came out of the Kidd Site. I asked Perino if I could send them back to him for him to look over once more and put my name on new COA's; which he did. Bill Jackson looked at a cache of these and killed them as being modern, he said it looked like they were all made by the same knapper, and he was seeing more and more of these.

    I talked to Mr. Redwine who dug at the Kidd Site with Glen Kizzia and he told me there were never any Hayes found at the Kidd site, that only Agees were found there , and was not sure why Perino had papered Hayes as coming from there. Mr. Redwine thinks someone took advantage of Mr. Perino in his later years. He said he thought that Tommy had made all those large Hayes and used Steve Granger to get Perino papers put on them.

    There was another story that has been floating out there that may have been planted to give the large Hayes validity it was that Glen had dug a deep hole at the Kidd site and was near the bottom of a shaft tomb and went home for the night. The next morning when he returned he noticed the hole had been dug out and any artifacts that may have been there were gone. Glen noticed that Tommy Goff's brand of cigarette butts were in the hole and around the hole and figured Tommy had robbed his hole. A few months later Tommy said he found a large cache of Hayes at the Riley Site.

    Regards,
    Jack

    These are part of the ones I owned:

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    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

    Comment


    • #3
      Posted by [greywolf22]
      Ralph

      The Caddos had novaculite as a primary source of material. They traded it out of the area into Okla, La, Tx and other places. What I cannot figure out is why they excluded it and choose local cherts when manufacturing Hayes points. The major outcropping for novacullite is near Hot Springs and the layer is about 10 feet deep. It is this material the Caddos had access to in abundance just as the Saudis have oil.

      Agee and Homan predate them and were made out of heat treated material such as novaculite. It is too tough in its natural state to knapp effectively. Both of these types are almost always made out of heat treated novaculite. I have found many Caddo utility arrow points are heat treated.

      Point is the Caddos had the technology and novaculite but for some reason chose to avoid it when making Hayes points. Why is a mistery to me and everone else I have discussed tthis with.

      I would like to see other Hayes points if you have them. Caddo material is just now receiving the attention it deserves.

      I think the richest burial is Mound C burial Q at Crenshaw. The Crenshaw Hayes are the early ones that show the Homan shape but are not made out of heat treated novaculite.

      One thing that I would like to point out is Agees and true Homans have only been found and documented in two sites Kidd & Crenshaw. Once you get out of these two spots I have not seen any documented points of these types I could buy off on. I wish I could be more "optimistic" about their numbers but there are less than 1,000 Agees dug based on talking to Glen Kizzia and even fewer true Homans. They are rare points.

      True Hayes are a bite more common but are still sought after. Caddo flint generally declined in craftmanship over time. Agrees ( pre Caddo or Coles Creek) being the best and the decline contuing until the Maud and Talco points came along in east Texas. These are almost always made out of a heat treated mud chert and the knapper dont seem to want to bother with the hassel. When you see the real keen long Hayes points be careful as they are "now" showing up in collections but were not found in sites like Mineral Springs and Crenshaw.

      There area two time periods for the Caddo Gibson aspect and Fulton aspect. Fulton aspect material (flint) is later and is generally not as high quality as Gibson material ie Homan and Hayes. The pottery on the other hand moved in the opposite direction. I only speculate that as the Caddo became more efficient at farming the empasis on hunting declined and it shows in the flint. The earlier Hayes are superior to the authentic latter Hayes.

      The diamond shaped base shows but the increasing number of Hayes you see that are so perfect, much over 1.5 inches long with the "cricket base are mmmmmmmmmmm very suspect relative to the documented evidence available. The shape of the cross section, base, flake pattern and length just dont show up in the documented artifacts. In fact I never saw one until about the early to mid 1990s in collections. A vast majority of the too long and perfect to be true ones are made by one guy. Dont take my comments out context but only a reason to compare the flake pattern, style, length and cross section to documented points and then let your gut feeling make your decision.

      Jack

      Crenshaw Hayes on the Cover of the Site Report. I used to own these two.

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      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

      Comment


      • #4
        Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
        Jack,
        I agree with some of your comments, but would withhold comment on others pending more hard data and evidence about your presumptions on the long Hayes points. I think the reason for these appearing only since the late 80s is because that is when they began to be dug, and the early assimilation continued into the mid-90s, the period you state that you first started seeing them. I have heard the rumors and innuendo for several years about these, but when you stop and consider the story compared to the facts, things don't always add up. Why for instance, would a story be planted about Tommy digging behind Glenn at the Kidd site to give credence to him digging up a cache of these at Riley months later? They don't even begin to resemble the deep mound "C" Hayes points. I have photographed and studied MANY of these points, including one of the large frames that Ken Partain had back in the mid-90s that I believe he bought directly from Tommy. Is there a possibility that all of these larger ones were made by the same person ? Of course there is. Is it not also possible that they were all made by a single person who inhabited the original site where they were found, the best knapper in the village making the best points for funerary purposes ? Absolutely. The same holds for many of the Agee points, even though 99.9 percent of those are unquestionably modern fakes. I'm not talking about Glen Kizzia's Agees here, but the multitude of Agee points being pawned off as genuine these days. But did these large Hayes points come from Kidd or Crenshaw ? I have no doubt that they did not, but rather from the Riley Site as claimed, as the vast majority are very different in form. Most of the largest ones from the same site do share the same flaking characteristics, I can well attest to that having studied something in the range of 150-200 of these points. But I for one would not be so quick to label them "ALL" as "modern" and don't personally believe that to be the case. Different than the Crenshaw points, yes. But the Crenshaw Hayes points also were rarely if ever made of novaculite, just as the Riley points, one piece of evidence in their favor.

        The Caddo not using novaculite in the production of Hayes points may well apply to the Ark-La-Tex general region, but there have been many novaculite Hayes points found around the Spiro area, both dug and surface found. The same applies for Homan points being found only at Kidd and Crenshaw. It is/was an oft-found type at Sprio. The frames in the photos show examples of novaculite Hayes points as well as Homan points from the Spiro Mounds or very close proximity, most of which I picked up within rock throwing distance of the now enclosed park area. As far as the reasoning for not using novaculite in the production of the larger Hayes points, it just may well be that the siltstones, battiest, kiamichi, and other cherts simply provided an easier to work material that did not require the added step of heat treating, or the more brittle attributes it takes on as a result. Using local cherts also may have become more acceptable or desirable than the long trek to the novaculite formations.

        We need to face the facts though, that if we all had to depend only on "documented" artifacts, this collecting interest would soon vaporize due to the lack of collectible material. But there are no doubt genuine and fakes of all types out there. Just like the Agee point, there are certain characteristics that instantly tell you whether you are dealing with a fake or the real thing, at least in the majority of situations. None of us can ever be 100% sure unless we find or dig it up ourselves....... and even then there will be the naysayers who will insist that we planted or buried it ourself before we dug it up or recovered it from the surface.

        Just my thoughts............


        Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
        A couple of Spiro area specific frames:

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        Note the two very distinct Homan points left and right of the brown Edwards at center of the frame. These were placed together because, although they were found in close proximity to Spiro, the 3 were most likely traded in from other areas from their characteristic flaking and material. Another novaculite Homan is shown 4th from right bottom row and is more of a style of Spiro specific manufacture.

        I'm sorry, but Bill Jackson's comment to justify not certifying a cache because the points all look like they were made by a single knapper just seems a little out in left field to me. Where else would you really expect such a group to be found other than in a cache ? And seeing more and more of a particular point type once they have started being dug is really no great mystery either. "Circumstantial evidence" I believe they call it, attacking the witness when it is impossible to challenge the facts ?

        Again, just my own thoughts.......
        I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

        Comment


        • #5
          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
          In this frame are several Hayes types that are manufactured more on the style of some of the Spiro specific points, mostly in novaculite.

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          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
          Here are 3 Hayes points, left one being of tan jasper, the center one siltstone, and the one on the right unidentified chert. All three have different flaking characteristics which can just as easily be attributed to the material as to the individual maker.

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          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
          Mis-attribution was apparently an ongoing problem with many of these points. Even Greg made his share of mistakes, noting this group as being from Hatchel in Miller County, Arkansas. Hatchel is neither in Miller County, nor in Arkansas. But how Greg wanted to trade me out of that little black serrated point to the left. Not all of Tommy Goff's points had the multi-notched stem.

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          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
          Here is an old photo from the Crenshaw Deep Mound "C" burial of several early Hayes points which tend not to have the multi-notched stem of the later Riley points although a couple seem to be showing that earliest indication. But notice the needle tips in comparison to the black Homan in one of my earlier frame photos. These all appear to be fairly consistent in size, although there is no scale shown. As an added note, just about every single fake Hayes point I have seen has had the "needle tip" added for good measure.

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          I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

          Comment


          • #6
            Posted by [greywolf22]
            Ralf
            Thanks for sharing your insite on this and sharing your collection with us. You know this subject about as well as anyone.
            I asked Dwain Rogers if he would paper my Hayes collection when I owned it and he said he would not as he could not tell the good from the bad on Hayes or Agees. This left me a bit concerned about my collection becasue of the time, effort & money I had in it. Plus the information that Mr. Redwine supplied me, and the comments from Mr. Jackson on a Hayes cache that was said to be found at the Kid site, he said were all modern, and these had Perino Papers on them; this did not give me a secure feeling.
            Regards.
            Jack

            Chrenshaw

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            Kidd

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            I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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            • #7
              Posted by [greywolf22]

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              I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

              Comment


              • #8
                Posted by [greywolf22]

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                I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                  Jack,
                  I always appreciate good debate, and fully realize we can all learn something as the result. Thank YOU. I had missed the part of Bill Jackson turning down the cache as reportedly being from the Kidd site. That I can completely understand. Sorry for that misunderstanding on my part. I think in later years, Greg pretty much used whatever information was supplied to him in many cases to identify the location of some of the points he papered, basing his primary opinion on the actual relic and its characteristics. Dwain seems unsure of the actual points, and Bill the "provenance" involved. I suppose we all have our own rules of engagement that we adhere to when something just doesn't seem to be adding up. Dwain's statement that he could not tell the good from the bad in either Hayes or Agee points is a good indicator of the problem of fakes on the market. Those long ones are definitely not from Kidd.

                  Posted by [south fork]
                  Wow what else can I say thanks for the show.

                  Posted by [greywolf22]
                  Ralf
                  I have a lot of pictures of the Agees that Glen dug at the Kidd Site if you would like to see them.
                  Jack
                  Here are a few I used to own from the Chrenshaw and Kidd site.

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                  I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                    Jack,
                    Are they the ones with mostly red backgrounds ? I have several photos of Glenn's Agees already in my files, but would appreciate anything you have, thank you. Something else I wanted to mention since we were discussing Greg Perino papers is that there has been an ongoing problem of even fake certificates counterfeited with bogus signature stamps, using very similar typewriter type. Not sure how well known this problem is, or how widespread, but I have some comparison photos of genuine and fake signature stamps if anyone is interested.
                    Thanks for all the pics. Any of those for sale ?????? LOL

                    Posted by [greywolf22]
                    Ralf
                    I know about the fake Perino papers. It is a shame. There was a lot of Perino paper artifacts walking around the Temple show. You now have to put a question mark on each one.
                    Jack


                    Posted by [greywolf22]
                    Ralf
                    Most of the pictures have red backgrounds, some have blue.
                    Jack

                    As the Agees came out of the ground. Glen spent many an hour matching the broken parts back together. He even put a wrong tip on some but did not know it because his site was not very good.

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                    Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                    Before we know it, someone will be offering services to authenticate the authenticator's paper. That's sad........ where does it all end except in self-educating ourselves ?
                    Yes, those photos I have. Thanks.

                    Posted by [greywolf22]
                    Ralph
                    Bill Jackson was offering that service on the Perino COA's for free at one time, not sure if they are still doing it.
                    Jack

                    Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                    Luckily I have many of them that passed directly from Greg's hands to mine through the years, so I have something good to compare the questionable ones to. I have some background in comparative ballistics, tool mark and handwriting analysis that helps too when it comes to things like that. If Bill is still doing that, I hope he continues for the sake of the hobby and Greg's good name. I miss the old guy.

                    Posted by [greywolf22]
                    Ralf
                    Bill Jackson has an area on his web page which shows what to look for when looking at a Perino paper. You might check it out.
                    I sent Perino 21 points at one time to paper and he phoned me and let me have it with both barrels, said to send him only two at a time or do not send at all, then he said he would send them back with papers in a few weeks and to have a good day. He was the best there was at what he did.
                    Jack
                    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                      You know, Jack, I have been looking back over your photos of the Hayes points, and something came to mind on an entirely different track than what we have been discussing. I thought I had seen the vast majority of Tommy Goff's Hayes points from Riley, but there are some very distinct ones in your photos, especially that first one (reposted below) that I think I would have had a very good recollection of, such as that multi-colored one at the top right. And looking much closer at some of the flaking in the other photos, I began to wonder if there may in fact be a new batch of fakes on the market that followed the early caches of the late 80s - early 90s ?????? I distinctly remember owning one that was 3 1/2 inches in length, that at the time (1992), everyone, including Greg Perino and Ken Partain, said was the longest one ever found to date. But now we are noticing pieces up well over 4 inches in length that to my eye just look "different", not just the flaking and workmanship, but the materials incorporated. Not sure I can pinpoint what I am seeing exactly, but I definitely want to look into some of these alot closer, and at least keep an open mind as to the possibilities involved.

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                      Posted by [Scorpion68]
                      Hey ya guys - That's a beautiful point Ralph. The color is truly amazing. And the info you guys are batting back and forth is really interesting. That's one of the reasons that I'm really afraid to buy points. I just ain't that sophisticated enough a collector and I'd be taken in a heart beat. Jack - What are the 3 points in the 13th pic down in your long post of pics. Couldn't find Chrenshaw or Kidd in my Overstreet but those are some wild looking points. ---Chuck


                      Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                      Apologies in advance for the poor photo quality on this one, but thought I would throw out another bone to chew on for anyone else that might want to get into this discussion. Jack, I'd like to hear your thoughts too especially. This piece mics out less than 2 millimeters thick with a length of 35mm to width of 19mm, one of the thinnest points I have ever owned of any type. It just floors me that it was ever made so thin without coming apart. My grandpa use to talk about bread during the great depression sliced so thin, it only had one side. This point nearly fits the bill...... Cross sectional shape, thickness, flaking, overall style are just some of the things to watch on genuine points, but also how each of those characteristics interplays with the others. For example, on genuine Agee points, most tend to have a variable thickness, being thicker toward the tip and base and noticeably thinner at mid-section. It's hard to describe the cross-sectional shape of such pieces, but after handling lots of them over time, it's something you pick up on that makes modern fakes seem to "jump out of the darkness and into the light" as Greg use to say. And then there are the differences between "field grade" and "funerary" pieces that run the gamut of characteristics in all directions. One thing that usually gives a fake Agee or other Caddo arrow point away immediately is the consistency in thickness from near the tip to near the stem base. Not only the consistency in thickness, but also the "flatness" for lack of a better word. Very seldom is any Caddo arrow point completely "straight" from tip to stem. Especially so in fake pieces like Agee, Hayes, Homan, Alba, and related Caddo types, many fakers appear to use pre-cut slices of working material to result in a finished point that is "too perfect".
                      Just a couple of thoughts........

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                      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                        Chuck,
                        If I'm not mistaken, those are Howard variations of the Hayes point, neat pieces and a pretty rare item. Jack can probably explain more about them than I can.


                        Posted by [greywolf22]
                        Some of the modern knappers like Bob Thomas who makes Agees are easy to pick out because on the way he makes them; which is to perfect in every way, no thickness variations, thick ground edges and his flaking style.
                        Jack

                        Bob Thomas Points

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                        Real Deal:

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                        Posted by [greywolf22]
                        Chuck
                        They were papered by Perino as being Hayes. Howard variant of Hayes would be correct in my book but Perino did not state this on his COA.
                        Jack

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                        I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                          Jack,
                          You mentioned the two Hayes points in one of your photos being from Crenshaw. Can you describe the cross-section shape of these for me ? From the photos, I would assume they are a rather flat lenticular form ? Thanks


                          Posted by [greywolf22]
                          Ralph
                          I bought those two from Randy Best and sold them about 4 years ago. They are are pictured on the front of the Chrensaw report. Wish I had taken pictures of the sides, but from what I remeber both points had two shallow convex faces which would be a lenticular form.
                          I just pulled the Crenshaw Report Mound "C" Miller County, Arkansas out and am reading it. I also pulled La Harpe's 1719 Post on Red River and Nearby Caddo settlements by Mildred Mott Wedel and will read it later. I have not read these in years.
                          Jack

                          Side view of point:

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                          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                          Thanks Jack. Just had out the Crenshaw report myself. Good reading.

                          Posted by [greywolf22]
                          Ralph
                          I have always wondered if a point made in lenticular form would penetrate further because of less friction on impact. Any info?
                          Jack

                          Posted by [Ralph Bryant]
                          That's a good question, although these funerary pieces were never meant to be utilized IMO. The regular everyday utility points always seem to be thicker in cross-section, and true lenticular, where the ones you describe have a broad-fuller type of concave face. I also think for the most part, alot of time was never spent on the production of individual utility arrow points simply because they had a life expectancy of maybe one shot because of their size and fragility. In making arrow points for every day use, it would have made more sense to make them thicker and more lenticular for the sake of a little longer usage span, maybe 3 or 4 shots, or to have enough material remaining on a break to allow resharpening. The thinner points would tend to snap in half, where thicker ones would more likely tend to just break near the tip, allowing for a resharpening rather than a complete replacement.

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                          Posted by [greywolf22]
                          Ralph
                          Thanks for the Chart and the info. I was just thinking in general that the lentcular form would cause less friction on impact than other cross sections. Form fits function?
                          Jack
                          I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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