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  • Frio River Landin

    Went on vacation with the family to Leakey, TX and camped out on the Frio river. While there I went to a pay dig site and found these artifacts, luck was definitely with me that day, thanks for looking!!

  • #2
    You didn't really ask for an opinion, so my opinion is just to make you aware of these pay to dig sites, so you don't waste your money. I'd be a little leery going back to that place. The first point looks pretty new, the notches and one edge looks freshly chipped, the Friday knife looks new, the Frio looks like fresh chipping in the notches and edges on both sides. The only piece that looks like it's entirely ancient is the last point, which could be either broken, or a hafted scraper. Pay to dig sites won't let you walk out with anything extremely nice or valuable. A lot of these places are salted. See if anyone else sees what I see, agree or disagree, and offer another opinion.
    http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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    • Jmhansard
      Jmhansard commented
      Editing a comment
      The pay dig site I went to is very a reputable site that was recommended by experienced hunters. I have not seen a single bad thing about them and they have been around for 10 years. I would think they would be out of business if they were planting fakes or at least I hope they would. I may have an archeologist check out the Friday to double check. Thanks for your input.

  • #3
    Cool Vacation Finds!
    http://joshinmo.weebly.com

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    • #4
      I thought I was seeing strep fractures as well, that looked pretty fresh. I had that opinion before I read what Paul had said. I'm no expert though. I am suspicious though.
      South Dakota

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      • #5
        Many points that are out of the deep freeze areas of the country look like these. Paul makes a good point and he may be right but I have seen many points out of Texas that look like they were made yesterday.
        Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

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        • #6
          I viewed this thread before anyone had respondid and the scheme Paul mentioned did run through my head when I looked at that first point... That being said i dismissed my initial notion remembering how many Texas points Ive seen posted on this site with fresh hinges as if they were made yesterday... That happens in places that rarely if ever see freezing temps. I could see the scenario that Paul mentions, and that would be a very nasty gimic... But if you felt good about it and don't suspect foul play then I congratulate you on some nice Texas finds.
          Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

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          • #7
            Points I have found along the rivers in Illinois and Kentucky that have just washed out still have hinge fractures whereas pieces that have been exposed normally don't. I hope that they are authentic because that is one great day of digging.

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            • #8
              Is it economical to make authentic looking points and bury them randomly for a paying customer to find? I have never tried knapping so I honestly don't know. But from what I have read on here and after watching some videos on knapping... it seems like a losing proposition unless people are paying $500 a day to dig. Knapping seems to be a labor of love, something that takes too long to use a money making scheme (again I have never done it so maybe it takes a lot less time than I think it does). I can see why an unscrupulous person might make and sell Paleo points, but to scatter around like the Easter Bunny so some dude can pay his $100 and yell 'eureka!'?

              I guess the question is, would any of the experienced knappers on this site make 7 points, start to finish, for $100?

              EDIT: I'm basing the rate off of 10 minutes of research on Google for pay dig sites in Texas...
              Last edited by Looks2Much; 04-28-2017, 07:02 AM.

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              • #9
                My thoughts are this. I used to go to Wyo. every year on vacation. I went every year for six years, until it wouldn't fit into my schedule anymore. Near Kenton, Okla., there was a rock shop, and on this guys land, he had a pay to dig site established. After a few years I got to thinking, where are all these points coming from that collectors and tourists are paying to find? Artifacts are not machine made and replenished. Once an artifact is removed from it's environment, it doesn't get replaced. But it seems every year there's more artifacts at the same place. Sooner or later, probably sooner, these sites will run out of artifacts. But they don't, there's a continuous supply of artifacts. Where are they all coming from?
                http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                • #10
                  It definitely is a conundrum... the question remains, how can someone afford to manufacture enough points to keep up the supply? Also, in my very unprofessional and incomplete research, I did find a few people complaining that they didn't find anything, which adds some credence to the craft of pay digs, but even that could be calculated I guess.

                  Maybe the fakes are imported from a third world country where people are just happy to have some kind of work?

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                  • #11
                    This is a real interesting thread Jm. I've run across a couple of these sites where you pay to dig and considered trying it but opted out. L2M brings up an important point about the economical issue involved in salting a dig site. I'll be honest and say I probably wouldn't be able to authenticate a point if I had to. I've hunted for years and know what a hinge fracture is but still - I'm no expert. Thanks for posting and authentic or not, I like em all.
                    Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

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                    • #12
                      Now I have read the comments. However before reading any of this I took the first picture and photo shopped it to get a better look. Those huge hinges don't look right. Perhaps better picture would help. Sure the hinges could be intact but is there mineralization under the hinges? I don't see any in the picture. I totally understand why Paul said what he did.
                      Michigan Yooper
                      If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything

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                      • Looks2Much
                        Looks2Much commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I hope I haven't come across like I was challenging anyone's expertise, my questions are legitimate questions that I can't answer on my own. Someone like you, Ron, that knaps points all the time could maybe shed some light on the logistics of making fakes for money. Would it be worth it? I think I can see what you guys are talking about on the first dark-colored point. Those light spots that appear like bubbles under ice do seem to suggest recent work to my untrained eye. Is that what you guys are looking at?

                      • Ron Kelley
                        Ron Kelley commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Hey Dave, yes the light colored areas in the photo are hinges (thin flakes that failed to dislodge from the point.) On Ebay any day of the week you can buy modern points by the hundreds for 20 cents each.

                      • Looks2Much
                        Looks2Much commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Wow. That's crazy. I guess it is feasible, economical and now seems downright likely... that's sad.

                    • #13
                      We all know where my expertise lies, and it certainly is not in identifying points.
                      If these are indeed authentic, you found some very nice ones. Click image for larger version  Name:	1.jpg Views:	1 Size:	379.0 KB ID:	248599
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                      Bruce
                      In life there are losers and finders. Which one are you?

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                      • pkfrey
                        pkfrey commented
                        Editing a comment
                        It's not really going to hurt anything, stick the back of your thumb nail on the edge of one of those milky flakes, and see if it pops right off. if it does, then than means the point was not exposed to weathering. On some materials they may get through, but they won't easily pick off.

                    • #14
                      Im still not surprised by seeing those hinge flakes on a Texas artifact. Yes they look clean but apparently it happens in the right conditions just like that.

                      Check out this thread were hinges are discussed. Also note the point Southfork post, we all know "Tilleys hill"...

                      I always believed that if there were any loose hinges, or hinges period that it was a rechiip or something. Well, I was looking at my Lerma" and noticed


                      I could go on showing numerous examples of this occurrence on Texas points that have been posted here. It goes against everything I thought I knew and really amazes me everytime I see this displayed. As P Kurt said, if you look through his threads you can see several examples of points he's found freshly washed out with hinges as fresh as it gets on 7,000-8,000 yr old artifacts in places were it freezes every winter. Yet those points were obviously never exposed to the forces need to remove the hinges.

                      I can see why there is concern on the points shown combined with the way they were found but im also aware of the odd occurrence of fresh, loosely clinging hinges on dug artifacts in the south. That being said, I think its a good idea if your going to pay dig someplace to check with other knowledgeable collectors in that area to get the scoop on how respectable an operation like that is. Im sure the bad places have equally bad reputations.

                      ​​​​​​
                      Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

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                      • #15
                        Well I don't know. The " Guest " in the post referred to is probably T.M., well know for knapping modern points of chalcedony and passing them off as real. And the salt water theory is what he goes by that preserves the surface while under water. An earlier post from months ago reveals this. But in his post he acknowledges the Lerma novaculite point is probably not old. Way to many clean hinge fractures and flakes. You can't just flint knapp a point, stick it in water, than freeze it and expect any loose flakes to freeze off. You would need to leave the freshly made point in the water for months to years, It happens over time when water seeps in there, and maybe after the first time, the freezing water won't produce enough pressure and expansion to freeze a flake off. It takes years and years, for this to happen naturally. And while the point is weathering, oxidation begins, so if the flake isn't frozen off, it will at least be discolored somewhat yellowish. Personally, if I can flip a loose flake off the surface with my fingernail, I question it's age.
                        http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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