Thunderbird Effigy

[Chiefcw02]

This is the follow up post to the lizard effigy this knapped stone figurine is very well made but quite too modern in aspect for my taste. I do not have a back story on it as it came in a large box of finds from a West Texas farm but I would love to know its provenance. Possibly an 1800's trade or tourist item, maybe a 1940's trade for alcohol, some oldtimers idle time project? I doubt we will ever know. As always your opinions are invited and welcomed....
thanks..
Chief

[wmwallace]

The piece is well knapped Edwin, but modern for sure. There has never been one found in any archaeological site or dig in the history of America, so modern for sure. Flint fish hooks are another often shown piece, that falls into that never discovered anywhere in campsites or digs. The piece appears to be well aged so probably knapped long ago, that is the scary part of our hobby, how many old time knappers stuff is thought to be authentic today? But neat conversation piece none the less.-Bill

[greywolf22]

Seen a lot of those over the years and most look the same. You can go on the line and find those for sale all saying they are good. None of them are. Lot of them were sold in tourist traps years ago.

[jackiejax]

I just found this site and forum.  I have an eagle effigy that my dad found in a cave in the Cascade Mountains in 1948. I have had forever, and I know this wasn't a tourist thing. WE have found arrowheads all over our Texas ranch  for 5 generations, my mother a professor at the University of Texas for 34 years. WE have had several experts and University people authenticate it. Please look:

[jackiejax]

i APOLOGIZE FOR THE POOR QUALITY AS i HAD TO TAKE THESE WITH MY PHONE.

[panaggie]

If you and the experts know it's authentic, why would you need anyone's reassurance on this site?
Thanks Bob

[Paleolution]

Interesting, could you provide us with a better photo, I don't see much mineralization or patina that would indicate it being ancient.

[CMD]

Jackiejax, I noticed you posted this elsewhere in the artifact forum universe where Neanderthal, who is also a member here, was of the opinion that it is a broken ancient piece that was rechipped as an effigy in modern times. His is a vey experienced opinion. I don't doubt your story is just as you remember it, but these things are so universally rejected as fake by the collecting community,
that a reputable authenticator probably would not touch it for fear of damaging his standing. Don't let it bug you, it's simply the nature of the beast where "thunderbird effigies" are concerned. Welcome to our forum!

[rmartin]

There has never been one found in a controlled archaeological dig. Your father may have found it in a cave but it is a modern figment of a flintkappers imagination. These thing have been produced by the thousands since probably the 1880's.

[jackiejax]

I posted it becasue of the comments saying they were ALL fake.  I only wnated to show you all one that has been authenticated at the University Of Texas. They are not ALL fakes. In fact, I have seen several owned by native Americans..Blackfoot and Lakota Sioux that have been passed dwon for several generations of their families. I wasn't asking for anyone reassurance at all.

[jackiejax]

Sorry..but that isn't so. This DID come from the cave in Oregon and afterward several arcaelogists from three Universitys did go and document and numerous finds, including the te pitographs on the walls.  This was the only eagle effigy found and it was wedged int a crack between the rocks and was buried in debris that had accumulated. It was on display at the University if Texas in austin in the early 1960's for a 3 month display. There were artifacts found on our ranch in Texas in Blanco County that were determined to be primitive man..of which are in the Smithsonian now. It was thru this dig that they were also shown this eagle and they DID test and authenticate it as well, as did the others that went and dug the cave in Oregon. I am only offering an example of one that IS real...tehy DO exist. Perhaps not in great number, This photo is with my phone but I will take some better ones.  The back side shows the mineral deposit areas where it had been buried.

[painshill]

I spent some time researching this area in more depth a while ago, prompted by the numerous discussions that have arisen on this site and elsewhere and further provoked when I saw a bunch of these things on sale at a collector’s fair here in the UK. What I saw on sale were stylistically exactly the same as the items normally posted and on close examination they showed every sign of having been made with modern metal tools. Anyways, here’s a short summary of what I found from trawling.
There are reports of these knapped items turning up as far back as the 1890’s and they were generally regarded by archaeologists as fakes even then. It’s odd how – from such a vast geographic spread of claimed find areas - the form and shape can be so similar. Well, no, not odd. Impossible.
The thunderbird as a motif (glyphs, paintings, baskets, pots etc) seems to have wide usage… but that usage seems to increase as the age of the examples decreases. That is – as an iconographic image - it’s been exploited more in modern times (and by non-Natives) than it seems to have been in ancient times. There are various references to arrangements of stones and such to create bird shapes in the form of pavements and mounds which are regarded as authentic Native American consructions. But it isn’t always clear that these constructions represent thunderbirds – as opposed to other kinds of birds.
Lithic Casting Lab has a copyrighted picture of a group of effigy items halfway down this page:

http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2007marchlizardeffigiespage2.htm

The accompanying text reads: “The five polished chert effigies in this picture represent some of the different styles for these unique artifacts….. The two human or bird forms also represent another style of polished chert effigy from this same area. The one on the left is from Adams County, Illinois and the one on the right is from Greene County, Illinois. The other two effigies are classic examples of polished chert lizards that have also been found in the same areas of Illinois and Missouri”.
But, even if these are bird forms, they are not definitively thunderbirds and in any case nothing like the spread-wing forms that are generally posted.
Thunderbird effigies as small individual items do exist but – although well documented – they are rare and almost unique to the Northern Plains area. These illustrations are from “Thunderbird Effigies from Plains Village Sites in the Northern Great Plains” by Robert E. Warren:


These effigies are almost always carved from shell, with occasional examples carved from bone. Not knapped from flint or chert. They seem to be associated almost exclusively with Mandan sites dating from around 1,000-1,500 AD.
One of these items (third row, extreme right, labelled ‘l’) was found at the Swift Bird mound site, which is part of a series of early Besant and Sonota burial mounds and other related sites in North and South Dakota dating between 1,350 and 1,950 years ago. As far as I could tell, it’s the only find from a mound.
I also found this picture from a generic information sheet published by the University of Iowa:

It was accompanied by this text: “A few very special artifacts were used in the ritual or ceremonial realms of certain prehistoric groups. At village sites of northwestern Iowa’s Late Prehistoric Mill Creek culture, small lens-shaped quartz or basalt discoidals and thunderbird effigies of limestone and catlinite have been found”.
These fragmentary items are carved (from stones that are only suitable for carving), not knapped, and again do not resemble the thunderbird forms normally posted.
If Warren’s attributions (or the reference from the University of Iowa) are in dispute then I would be keen to read any critical follow-up from other researchers. If that Oregon item was authenticated and put on display then it must surely be documented somewhere… so where?
I don’t offer any of this as support for the authenticity for what is being posted here. Quite the reverse, in fact.

[Bone2stone]

Roger,
Thank you for that wonderful rebuttal.(Cool Link BTW)
Very concise and to the point.
The so called thunderbird is just one of the most
overly FAKED Artifact "Outside of the Paleo points"out there that I can think of.
I have been involved in the artifact collecting "Hobby"
most all of my 60+ years.
I just loved finding them and did not even bother with identifications.
Having anyone actually tell years later that, these things have names!!!!
I have a friend that was going to fool me with a "Thunderbird". :whistle:
Well short story long he made one and found it on the screen.
Yeah right, the patina was disturbed and was pretty obvious.
He did rework a "broke" and although it looked like it was
a nice point, at one time, him doing that just Pi$$ed me off.
Bringing "Fake anything" to a site is Taboo!
The true effigy is an elusive item and having such would distinguish
a collection enormously.
The Mexican stuff looks pretty good  :blink: and those seem to be the ones
most jokers frequently use to try and fool their friends or associates. :evil:
If your "Thunderbird" is not one of the imports but more of a domestic origin only
that single provendence make it different/borderline collectable.
Just my two cents. And two cents ain't much.
Jess B.

[panaggie]

jackiejax wrote:

I posted it becasue of the comments saying they were ALL fake.  I only wnated to show you all one that has been authenticated at the University Of Texas. They are not ALL fakes. In fact, I have seen several owned by native Americans..Blackfoot and Lakota Sioux that have been passed dwon for several generations of their families. I wasn't asking for anyone reassurance at all.

Being a true die hard Sooner born and bred, I am always suspicious of Longhorns. Just kidding Jackie  .
There have been so many of these things come across here and we have dug and scoured as Roger did and came up with nothing valid to verify that these knapped "thunderbirds" are legit. As Roger said, if this thing has been in the Smithsonian or at the UT, surely there is some type of documentation and commentary. If you will produce the one of many certificates of authenticity or a valid research paper, I will listen. I mean you no disrespect, I'm just not buying it.
Thanks Bob

[rmartin]

Sorry, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. They did not exist in prehistoric times, Native American simply did not make them from chipped flint in this form.