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  • #46
    In the first post to this thread I wrote:

    "It is most certainly NOT my intention to start another Solutrean thread by posting this photo...I am posting it simply for the informational value a photo provides." By now it should be clear that I was hoping not to attend a fight where a Solutrean thread broke out :S
    I hope this is the last word, but I'm not the boss, and Butch, yeah I miss him too sometimes.
    Rhode Island

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    • #47
      Yep, the same thing happens everywhere this subject is debated. It never takes long for posts to degenerate into personal jabs and insults until it becomes obvious this subject is just too personal for most people. All someone has to do is defend Drs. Stanford and Bradley's idea and its on. I have no idea why this is true but it is.
      It is a theory may turn out to be true. It is a theory that may not turn out to be true. It probably will take quite a few years to settle and already I am convinced that which ever way it turns out folks will choose to remain divided. It is a lot like politics or religion that way.

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      • #48
        CMD wrote:

        In the first post to this thread I wrote:

        "It is most certainly NOT my intention to start another Solutrean thread by posting this photo...I am posting it simply for the informational value a photo provides." By now it should be clear that I was hoping not to attend a fight where a Solutrean thread broke out :S
        I hope this is the last word, but I'm not the boss, and Butch, yeah I miss him too sometimes.
          Time to lift the suspension?

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        • #49
          Maybe within the next 5 years or so ancient DNA from northern Eurasia will give us some kind of new clue. But in the mean time its always fun to speculate! So I'll just keep on picking up artefacts and relics and maybe one day my ancestors will laugh and say "wonder why they thought that?" lol Thanks for the pics! Sandy

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          • #50
            Bill wrote:

            Yep, the same thing happens everywhere this subject is debated. It never takes long for posts to degenerate into personal jabs and insults until it becomes obvious this subject is just too personal for most people. All someone has to do is defend Drs. Stanford and Bradley's idea and its on. I have no idea why this is true but it is.
            It is a theory may turn out to be true. It is a theory that may not turn out to be true. It probably will take quite a few years to settle and already I am convinced that which ever way it turns out folks will choose to remain divided. It is a lot like politics or religion that way.
            I know what you're saying Bill, could be some kind of common denominator in those post!

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            • #51
              [QUOTE]Butch Wilson wrote:

              Originally posted by Bill post=49080
              Yep, the same thing happens everywhere this subject is debated. It never takes long for posts to degenerate into personal jabs and insults until it becomes obvious this subject is just too personal for most people. All someone has to do is defend Drs. Stanford and Bradley's idea and its on. I have no idea why this is true but it is.
              It is a theory may turn out to be true. It is a theory that may not turn out to be true. It probably will take quite a few years to settle and already I am convinced that which ever way it turns out folks will choose to remain divided. It is a lot like politics or religion that way.
              I know what you're saying Bill, could be some kind of common denominator in those post!
                I think it’s kinda' like the way “trial by jury” works. There’s enough evidence to justify a trial but it’s not strong enough to force the defence to capitulate. Both sides think they can win and both will ‘manipulate’ the presentation of their evidence to enhance their case and throw mud if they think it will help. The jury often recognises this manipulation and resents it. Everyone in the jury gets the same evidence but they’re not allowed to introduce any evidence of their own or use any personal knowledge they may have of the case… which can be immensely frustrating. They simply have to make judgements firstly on which parts of the contradictory evidence are factually correct and truthful; and secondly what conclusion can be drawn from the indisputable parts, while bearing in mind where the burden of proof rests.
              Anyone who has fulfilled their public duty by serving on a jury will know that this scenario is pretty much guaranteed to create heated argument. Twelve people will not all come to the same conclusion and – even if they do – it still may not be the right conclusion. Sometimes the guilty walk and the innocent worry about dropping the soap at their next showering occasion. 
              But “nothing can be sliced so thinly that it only has one side” (Ralph Waldo Emerson, I think. Or possibly Mark Twain). 
              I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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              • #52
                The renunciation of communicative interaction highlights the phenomenalism of exoticism.
                The guarded remarks concerning the relationship between the renunciation of communicative interaction and the phenomenalism of exoticism throws out the metatextual baby with the textual bathwater.  The politics of (dis)simulation is indistinguishable from the idea of localized small-group cultures.
                Painshill's excruciatingly detailed analysis of the relationship between the politics of (dis)simulation and the idea of localized small-group cultures explores with scathing depth and honesty the flaws of the field as a whole.
                 
                  :laugh:
                Professor Shellman
                Tampa Bay

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                • #53
                  Tom, I feel like I just talked to my first ex-wife's attorney ! I'm tippin the jug, for sure! :whistle:

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                  • #54
                    Pain, I believe you are confusing what public opinion may or not want/believe and the weight of accumulating evidence and facts. Opinions are irrelevant against this weight.
                    I predict that the weight of evidence for Clovis from Solutrean will continue to accumulate and as it becomes heavier, the weight will both overwhelm and crush those who refuse to accept the truth. I believe the Clovis from Solutrean evidence has reached critical mass and would convince a jury to find in the the Solutreans favor.

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                    • #55
                      Whatever you said Tom, I found the remarks so excruciating that I need to take an aspirin!

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                      • #56
                        Dandielyonwine, that would really be awesome but it wouldn't come from Eurasia. It is my hope that Clovis related DNA could be found in the Chesapeake Bay area here that could be compared to Solutrean DNA recovered from the Cantabria area of Spain.
                        That should absolutely prove or disprove whether Clovis came from there.

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                        • #57
                          Bill, Instead of being so defensive, why not just constructively answer some of the questions asked by the forum members? We're not here to belittle you, we're just searching for legitimate answers, which could help prove the validity of the Solutrean connection. Example:
                          1. If the Solutreans landed on North American soil, where are the substantial number of their tools, which should still be found somewhere?
                          2. Where, in a wooden boat, would someone build a fire? Which would be imperative to survive such a lengthy journey.
                          3. If the Solutreans had an ivory/bone technology, this also would have been passed on to the Clovis culture. Where, on any Clovis sites, do we find a bone industry of needles, fish hooks, and harpoons?
                          4. They surely would have brought pre-manufactored tools with them, knapped from foreign flints native to Spain or france. Where have we found foreign lithics any where along the Atlantic coastel sites?
                          5. Explain to us, a 7,000 gap between the end of the Solutrean culture, and the beginning of our Clovis culture.
                          Now, rather than intelligently answere these questions, you will come back with, I'm stupid, nothing is relative, read the book, anything to skirt the issue, rather than just objectively answere the questions.
                          http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                          • #58
                            pkfrey wrote:

                            All this talk about the outre passe flaking technique. Outre passe does not, in itself, prove a blade is Paleo, or older. Many cultures used this techique to thin their blades, including the Perkiomen points, Jacks Reef points, Adena points. I could attach photos of some nice Archaic points with this flaking. Outre passe is a technique, it can't be used to establish antiquity.
                              I like pictures! Please post! Sandy

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                            • #59
                              Bill wrote:

                              Pain, I believe you are confusing what public opinion may or not want/believe and the weight of accumulating evidence and facts. Opinions are irrelevant against this weight.
                              I predict that the weight of evidence for Clovis from Solutrean will continue to accumulate and as it becomes heavier, the weight will both overwhelm and crush those who refuse to accept the truth. I believe the Clovis from Solutrean evidence has reached critical mass and would convince a jury to find in the the Solutreans favor.
                                Overwhelm and crush those who refuse to accept the truth?? Obviously, scientific debates can be very contentious but that's a very war-like image. Maybe they could be bombed into submission :whistle:
                              Rhode Island

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                              • #60
                                pkfrey wrote:

                                Bill, Instead of being so defensive, why not just constructively answer some of the questions asked by the forum members? We're not here to belittle you, we're just searching for legitimate answers, which could help prove the validity of the Solutrean connection. Example:
                                1. If the Solutreans landed on North American soil, where are the substantial number of their tools, which should still be found somewhere?
                                2. Where, in a wooden boat, would someone build a fire? Which would be imperative to survive such a lengthy journey.
                                3. If the Solutreans had an ivory/bone technology, this also would have been passed on to the Clovis culture. Where, on any Clovis sites, do we find a bone industry of needles, fish hooks, and harpoons?
                                4. They surely would have brought pre-manufactored tools with them, knapped from foreign flints native to Spain or france. Where have we found foreign lithics any where along the Atlantic coastel sites?
                                5. Explain to us, a 7,000 gap between the end of the Solutrean culture, and the beginning of our Clovis culture.
                                Now, rather than intelligently answere these questions, you will come back with, I'm stupid, nothing is relative, read the book, anything to skirt the issue, rather than just objectively answere the questions.
                                  +1, Amen to that!
                                Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan

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