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  • Great post Pain and thank you for the awesome descriptive refit sketches.
    I have given it a lot of thought and I don't believe the theory that overshot flaking was invented because it enabled knappers to conserve material. Having looked at Solutrean projectile points I believe they used over shot technique for another reason.
    I believe the Solutrean knappers used that technique because they were interested in lifting their knapping beyond the utilitarian nature of projectile points. They were interested in creating masterful works of art. Their flint knapping was their artistic expression.
    This is a logical assumption I base upon many of the points they left behind. It seems that they were made better than they needed to be. In the same manner, many Clovis points were made better than a projectile point that was only necessary to kill the next meal. Most Clovis points seem to have been made better than they should have been too and this was very Solutrean-like of them.

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    • The real point for me is that we’ve gone from: it’s accidental or clumsy knapping) ---> it’s an error correction technique ---> hang on a minute… it’s a really efficient reduction method once you’ve mastered it ---> actually it may be all of the above but it’s a means to an end and not the only way to achieve that end. :huh:
      Also from: outre-passé or overshot flaking was the way to go if you wanted ultra-thin large blades and that’s what the Solutrean technology was all about ---> oh… actually we have a range of blade forms and the really thin ones are a culmination of knapping technology to produce an art form rather than being utilitarian ---> hang on a minute… many of those blade forms may have been generated from the same preforms made in the same way but finished to different levels using a variety of techniques according to intended use. :huh:
      Also from: we can divide the Solutrean into three time periods and track the way the technology progresses ---> not all sites have the same range of technology and that’s probably because the sites are different ages and were occupied for relatively short periods ---> hang on a minute… maybe what we’re actually seeing is the same technology at different stages of completeness with respect to the intended end result. :huh:
      Also (in many cases) from: this is a Solutrean site ---> oh… this is effectively a factory where Solutrean technology was in use and churning out semi-finished items, but not really a habitation site as such. :huh:
      Also from: we can typify the technology from the final item ---> oh… many of the items are not actually finished ---> hang on a minute… if we refit the artefact back together there’s a lot more to this technology than meets the eye and techniques were being used that we didn’t know about. :huh:
      And most of these dawning realisations have only crept up on us in the last 5-6 years or so. We really are only just beginning to properly understand this area. That’s also what prompted Bradley et al. to suggest “a detailed revision of other bifacial industries from within and from outside the Solutrean geographic and chronological frames” would be in order.
      The biggest reason for my interest in all this is that when I ultimately pull my first glistening Solutrean laurel leaf outta’ the dirt I wanna’ be sure that’s what I have. :laugh:
      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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      • Great post Pain, it all sounds good to me.
        Is it difficult to get an really nice, authentic Solutrean leaf point and how expensive is one.

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        • Bill wrote:

          Great post Pain, it all sounds good to me.
          Is it difficult to get an really nice, authentic Solutrean leaf point and how expensive is one.
            Oh boy, is it difficult. I have good contacts in France but the "amateur" finds are snapped up immediately by French collectors. Most of what reaches the market comes from French farmers and landowners in the right places. Those guys know almost as much about artefacts (and their value) as any museum expert.
          The last one that I was offered was some time ago... a two inch biface for about $820 !!! I didn't buy... the wife would have killed me!  :laugh:
          I expect that Stanford's book and the surrounding publicity will have a dramatic effect on availability and price of what is already a scarce item. 
          I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

          Comment


          • Dang it sounds like those things have gotten to be as expensive as Folsom points are in the Western USA.
            The same things have happened to authentic militeria from the Viet Nam War, especially Special Forces uniforms, authentic tiger stripped boonies, etc. Prices for this stuff has suddenly gone way up and this market is being driven by overseas collectors. My guess is collectors in Germany, Belgium, France, England, Poland etc, have created hot spots of desirability for it.
            This is the new (collectors) bubble and I'll bet a lot of the vets who gave away or threw away their's after they got home, can't believe the prices their old stuff is bringing now.

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            • greywolf22 wrote:

              What a bunch of BS and hype over nothing. Lets make it up and see if others will join in with us. This should be a dead issue. It cannot be proved so it is not so.
              These are Soulutrean Blades found in France and look a lot different than the dredged biface.

              Your biface from the dredge

              Jack
                Here is a blade from Unalaska Island, Dutch Harbor. Looks similar but found in Alaska.

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              • I just want to thank everyone for making this, in the long run, a very educational thread
                Rhode Island

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                • greywolf22,the Outré Passé Flakes are there on both of your first two pictures and the only difference is in the material that was used to make them.
                  The Solutrean biface was made out of Top quality European flint and the Solutrean-American biface was made out of a different material that didn't lend itself to beautiful knapping.
                  How flat in cross section is that Alaskan biface in your third picture?

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                  • Bill wrote:

                    greywolf22,the Outré Passé Flakes are there on both of your first two pictures and the only difference is in the material that was used to make them.
                    The Solutrean biface was made out of Top quality European flint and the Solutrean-American biface was made out of a different material that didn't lend itself to beautiful knapping.
                    How flat in cross section is that Alaskan biface in your third picture?
                      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____
                    I will ask the owner. Its made of Basalt, 4.9" long.

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                    • [QUOTE]greywolf22 wrote:

                      Originally posted by greywolf22 post=46181
                      What a bunch of BS and hype over nothing. Lets make it up and see if others will join in with us. This should be a dead issue. It cannot be proved so it is not so.
                      These are Soulutrean Blades found in France and look a lot different than the dredged biface.

                      Your biface from the dredge

                      Jack
                        Here is a blade from Unalaska Island, Dutch Harbor. Looks similar but found in Alaska.

                      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
                      This is an Early Archaic Knife I used to own. It is very flat – 7 15/16”L x 2 3/16”W – Dwain Rogers COA. - Early Archaic 8,000-6,000 B.P - Dennie Presley found this artifact in 1969 at Cathlow Valley, at the site of an ancient ice age lake that dried up 7,000 years ago. Valley now is mostly sand and alkali flats. The wind uncovered this piece from a sand dune area. Old wave terraces are 50ft above valley floor. Lake was 20-30 miles across. Denny said this was the first large blade he ever found. There is a Basalt source on Stinking Water Mountains about sixty miles north east of Cathlow Valley. Item could have come from there but entire County is volcanic area.

                        __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

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                      • I have been told this may date back to Paleo times by a few collectors in Oregon.
                        Jack

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                        • OK now you guys have taken it to the scientific level LOL just when ya all thought it was beat beyond beat it is what it is.........
                          painshill wrote:

                          The Maitreaux site is important in relation to understanding large, thin, bifacial, laurel leaf blade production (known as “Solutrean type J”). These blades are rare and generally attributed to middle Solutrean, although here they seem to extend into the late phase. Analysis suggests classic bifacial reduction to leave the centre portion of the blank was the norm, but the previously unknown asymmetric reduction technique was first identified here. That piece I posted was not being worked to a centre-line ridge, it was being asymmetrically reduced, for which the advantages to the knapper are: rapid thinning, better flaking angles, larger margins for eventual error correction, easier elimination of internal defects and less need for continuous biface plane adjustment. It’s a particularly valuable technique for nodules which have a coarse internal zone and a high-quality sub-cortical zone, as is the case at Maîtreaux and other sites in the vicinity.
                          Maitreaux has yielded over 60,000 lithics but the vast majority of finds are unfinished. Final shaping flakes are rare on the site. Bradley has divided the production sequence into distinct phases, simplified as:
                          1. Testing and preforming of carefully selected nodules (procured elsewhere), accomplished mainly by mineral hammer percussion.
                          2. Reduction carried out on the site by organic percussion, simultaneously thinning and shaping the pieces.
                          3. Systematic export of the pieces for finishing elsewhere, sometimes including pressure flaking towards the end of the sequence.
                          There is a strong suspicion that so called “early/middle/late” large Solutrean laurel leaves may well be more indicative of different stages in the production sequence:

                          (ref: “Solutrean Laurel Leaf Production at Maîtreaux” [Aubry, Bradley, Almeida et al 2008)

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                          • Thanks Jack for posting this artifact. I believe it is a Cascade biface and is Paleoindian in age, dating to at least 11,000 years old or older. Kennewick was carrying one of these around in his hip when he died.
                            This point type represents the early excursions of the Northeastern Asians, the ancestors of American Indians, into North Western North America. These are the folks who came in massive numbers and took over the entire country while either crowding out of throwing out the Clovis people and also any left over Preclovis people too.
                            Thank you for posting a picture of a great artifact, I couldn’t have let that one go.

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                            • Thank you PaArtifactHunter, for a great post

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                              • Overshot/Overface  Topper Site SC
                                Thesis is from a brilliant up and comer boom.
                                http://csfa.tamu.edu/cfsa-publicatio...10-37-2413.pdf
                                Professor Shellman
                                Tampa Bay

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