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  • pkfrey
    replied
    Everyone, except for Bill, might as well lay this subject to rest. Bill apparently holds Stanford and Bradley in high reverence. A dozen people have offered logical and common sense reasons why there probably was never a Solutrean connection, but because Stanford and Bradley SAY there was, then there was. Apparently if someone is a " professional " they have all the correct answers. Remeber though, it was the professionals, who thought the Woody Blackwell Clovis points were authentic. It was the professional who thought the Piltdown Man was authentic. The professional thought the Hodges crystal skull was authentic. During the early days of fossil identification, the professionals mistakenly placed the fossil skull of a T-Rex on the fossil skeleton of a Brontosaurus. Bradley and Stanford are professionals because they passed their academic courses and hold certificates, BUT, I don't care how many certifacts you own, or how many times your on T.V., or how many times your picture is on a cover of a magazine, that doesn't mean you can't be wrong. So now that these two PROFESSIONALS have adopted the Solutrean theory, it would be a huge embarrasment for them to come back and say their wrong, so they will stick with it. If other peolple want to believe it, that's up to them. I don't, never did, and never will, but Bill is welcome to believe it if he so desires.

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  • Bill
    replied
    So far Pain, you first three paragraphs only demonstrate to me you are missing the Nexus that has been revealed in the carefully researched work by Drs. Stanford and Bradley. If they are correct, Clovis came from the Northern costal Spanish Solutrean.   
    The Solutrean big picture as far as it extends to North American Classic Clovis includes Outré Passé bifacial thinning. Throughout flint knapping time this technology has only existed in Solutrean and Clovis and no where else. 
    Drs. Stanford and Bradley have been able to archaeologically tighten the time line of the Northern Spanish Solutrean and realized Clovis sites in the Chesapeake Bay of North America simply made a Solutrean immigration possible.
      As they revisited Spanish Solutrean costal sites and Eastern North American Clovis sites they realized Solutrean people did have time to have reached Eastern North America before the end of the Solutrean culture. The proof they have offered is the presence of identical Solutrean tools, stone working technology and much so more that is covered in Across Atlantic Ice.
    Their case is extremely strong and very well laid out. I believe they will be proven correct.

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  • Butch Wilson
    replied
    Expired equine !

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  • Bill
    replied
    Everyone is entitled to believe anything they will. However when someone goes beyond disagreement and crosses the line into ridiculing someone else’s carefully thought out scholarship that entitlement abruptly ends! 
    CMD, both Roger and Bob Young would quickly discover they were outclassed, overmatched and would be humbled in short order if they debated Drs. Stanford and Bradley this subject. 
    Believe it or not I have no passion either way because it is simple.  Clovis from Solutrean to me, it is simple logic or Archaeologic if you will. The reduction sequence and technological process between Soultrean and Classic Clovis as well as tools, use of ivory, engraved stones, use of eyed needles, and more is not just similar, it is identical say the Drs. Since they are professionals who have been studying this very thing for at least ten years if not more I cannot say they are wrong and neither can anyone else prove they are wrong either. 
    I find it offensive that both Roger and Bob Young think they should challenge and ridicule two blue ribbon professional archaeologists who are also outstanding scholars. To think two amateur wannabes should challenge them is laughable in the least.
    I read pains (AKA Roger, I think) comments on the Solutrean and it immediately became clear to me he would be better served by reading more about the subject than posting a critique that was based upon feeling and belief but not and not scholarship!

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  • Butch Wilson
    replied
    That's why I miss a certain banned member.....he would always lighten up a conversation when it was getting too heated or serious !

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  • painshill
    replied
    Butch Wilson wrote:

    I have a rock that fits my hand perfectly !
      I think you'll find that you actually have a hand that fits your rock perfectly. Now... given that your hand is exactly the same size as a Viking's hand, that artifact warrants some closer examination.

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  • Butch Wilson
    replied
    I have a rock that fits my hand perfectly !

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  • CMD
    replied
    Roger, do I get a discount if I promise to only stand and cheer for your arguments? Senior discount? What if I give you a ride to the lecture hall? Sorry, don't mean to sound cheap, it's just that I'm..., well, cheap :silly:
    Nice tools, Roger!

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  • painshill
    replied
    Just to lighten up the thread a little, here’s some pictures. I have scavenged for tools in the areas where it is (or was) allowed, such as the vicinity of the caves at Les Eyzies and Laugerie Haute. I have found tools there, but from either side of the Solutrean (dang!)  inch:  such as this nice little Aurignacian burin from the Les Eyzies locality:

    And this nice notched Magdalenian blade from the Laugerie Haute locality:

    Although this next one was in the wrong area and stratum, I almost had an apoplexy when it came out of the ground. What looked like a single shoulder  :woohoo:  was immediately evident (hooray!)  , but a good clean up revealed it to be – I think – a broken Neolithic blade (boo!)  , although it has some interesting features, don’t you think?:

    [Oh. And Charlie. You’d be prepared to pay? OK. You known the drill. Used notes in the hollow tree. Small denomination bills. No consecutive serial numbers]   :whistle:

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  • painshill
    replied
    I hefted that big stone in the pond to make a splash. I do in fact have a great respect for the knowledge that went into the book. They are professionals and I’m an amateur. But I do follow the archaeological research in Europe avidly (have done for years) and am lucky to be close enough to have made visits to many of the Solutrean sites in France and Spain, including some which are now closed to the public.
    None of that makes me an expert of course and it’s really easy to throw stones and pick holes in someone’s theory. But that’s what theories are for. They have to be robust enough to withstand this. The burden of proof rests with Stanford and he plays the same games that all researchers with a bee in their bonnet play. Quoting selective references, glossing over inconvenient contra-indications, reinforcing comparisons which are superficial, presenting isolated evidence as if it were generic, making assumptions and presenting them as if they were factual. I don’t blame him. He’s trying to fill in the gaps. Everyone does it – even the most objective researchers.
    There is, for example a world of difference between occasional Clovis heat treatment to improve lithic characteristics and the widespread sophisticated techniques apparent in the Solutrean industry. Also a world of difference between crude Clovis rock-scratching and the artistry of Solutrean carving (and painting).
    Are shouldered points confined to the late Solutrean? No. Although it would be true to say that all Solutrean lithic assemblages found so far where shouldered points are absent, date to 20,000 BP or older, the reverse is not true. For example, the Fourneau du Diable rock shelter has yielded several hundred shouldered points and – while they were more abundant in the upper two of the three Solutrean layers – they were also found in the bottom layer sitting on top of Gravettian tools.
    Does the (possible) representation of a halibut give us any proof of Solutrean seafaring skills in deep oceanic waters? No. Halibut mature at about 10 years but normally spend the first 4 of those in shallow coastal waters. Even after that they can be found offshore if the water is cold enough and there is food available.
    That’s nit-picking, but it’s informed nit-picking… and I could do quite a lot of it. Again, the evidence needs to withstand it. As for the “big picture”… what typifies the Solutrean industry more than anything else is the awareness of the environment that is reflected in its artistry. It is inconceivable (to me) that safe arrival after a perilous journey to an exciting new land full of unfamiliar animals and plants would not have been accompanied (big-time) by an explosion of celebratory art. Also, the bow and arrow (assuming you accept it was part of the Solutrean tool-kit) was a hugely significant innovation that rapidly spread across Europe. It wasn’t widely used initially – probably because of the nature of the preferred or available food sources and the hunting environment. By contrast, it would surely have been highly suitable for much of the North American environment and anyone who wants to convince me otherwise is gonna have a hard time.
    Having read the book (and the papers, and the articles, and heard the lectures, and seen the TV programmes), am I convinced? No. Stanford hasn’t proved his case and in my (non-expert) opinion, I think he’s barking up the wrong tree.

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  • CMD
    replied
    Bill, IMHO, reading a book and having the ability to read it critically is considered normal, not ridicule.
    Critiquing a theory or hypothesis is normal and constructive, not destructive. You know not everyone accepts their thesis wholeheartedly. Personally, I would pay to listen to a debate with Roger and Bob Young from PROS on one side, and Stanford and Bradley on the other. I certainly don't fault your impassioned defence of the Solutrean hypothesis, but there are times I think you support it even more then Stanford and Bradley do
    And Bill, if I haven't told you before, I appreciate your enthusiasm for the subject of the peopling of the Americas. It's an enthusiasm and an excitement I very much share. I'm very glad I lived to enjoy these heady times in American archaeology!

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  • Bill
    replied
    Ha ha, aw Pain you are really a funny bloke but if you have read Drs. Stanford and Bradley’s book, Across Atlantic Ice then it sounds to me like your only goal was to make an unconstructive (failed!) attempt to ridicule their effort. That is not cool however why don't you send them an email about complaints. :silly:  :side:  :lol:

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  • painshill
    replied
    Have read the book. Can't wait for the film. I would suggest:
    Production by: Paramount
    Scripting by: DreamWorks
    Lead actor: Mel Gibson
    Lead actress: Halle Berry (dressed in a suitably small furry bikini)*
    Music by: Hans Zimmer
    Merchandising by: Disney
    *maybe just the bottom half. :whistle:

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  • Bill
    replied
    No no Gregszybala, you should have written the Solutrean biface that WAS found off the North Eastern coast.

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  • Bill
    replied
    Uh oh Painshill, here I come because you haven’t even come close to what is correct so no tally ho ho ho for you. You have crossed the line! In the meantime I must point out that it is a mystery to me why you are eager to criticize something you seem to know so little about. That is Dr. Sanford and Dr. Bradley to you because your remark about their new book Across The Ice was totally uncalled for!   
    The word industry if you would like to apply it to the Solutreans, should refer to their masterful ability to work Flint. Their technique of Outré Passé bifacial thinning has only been seen in one other place in the world and that is in the way the Classic Clovis culture prepared and thinned their bifaces. Hmmmm, it seems like the Solutrean and early Clovis cultures were very closely related. I wonder if they were.
    The Solutreans were indeed both a people and a culture that was based upon the artistic way they knapped European flint because they were absolutely the best of their time and were also accompliched hunters. 
    “Large spear points and blades with a resemblance to the Clovis’ industry is just one aspect of that. Incidentally, some of the larger laurel points are so flamin’ thin that they look more to be “showpieces” or ritual items rather than having any practical value as weapons, or any functional superiority as tools. These extremely thin points also exhibit evidence of mastery of controlled heat treatment of the raw material. Any evidence of that in Clovis technology” You got most of this right but missed the point. They way they knapped flint was an artistic expression to them and why they carried their flint knapping to higher levels that anyone else at the time. 
    You should appreciate the sheer artistic mastery of the artifacts the Solutreans left behind because it is both their contribution and legacy to the time.
    Perhaps for the Clovis engraved (found at Gault) stones, carved figures, eyed needles, bone fish hooks, and cave art you really should read Drs. Stanford’s and Bradley’s new book, Across Atlantic Ice for your enlightenment and to update your knowledge.
    Unfortunately you knowledge about this subject is in error as has been pointed out in Drs. Stanford’s and Bradley’s new book Across Atlantic Ice. I’m sure you will be both enlightened and humbled by their knowledge and their updates on older discoveries. 
    Ha ha, thanks for the attempt at humor because I’m afraid that the satisfactory answer you seek can only be reached after you have read Drs. Stanford’s and Bradley’s new book Across Atlantic Ice.
    “Artists fell off the boat and drowned” you are such a funny fellow and I have enjoyed you humorous stories, Cheerio. :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:

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