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  • Dang Tom, thanks for that because we were so busy looking at that Smallwood babe, at least I was, we/I completely forgot about her publication.

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    • Thanks Jack for posting this artifact. I believe it is a Cascade biface and is Paleoindian in age, dating to at least 11,000 years old or older. Kennewick was carrying one of these around in his hip when he died.
      This point type represents the early excursions of the Northeastern Asians, the ancestors of American Indians, into North Western North America. These are the folks who came in massive numbers and took over the entire country while either crowding out of throwing out the Clovis people and also any left over Preclovis people too.
      Thank you for posting a picture of a great artifact, I couldn’t have let that one go.
        __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
      Bill
      We will see how this all turns out. I am not in the east to west camp, but it gives one a pause to think about it.
      I am not sure if the biface is Cascade blade but it could be.Very few this size have been found.
      Jack

      [quote=Bill post=49779]

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      • Jack the Cascade type is interesting because it is an early type that seems to be found mostly in the Pacific Northwest. Clovis finds have been extremely rare in this area and I would like to know why.
        Since the people who used Cascade and Clovis points were around at pretty much the same time, could Clovis folks have avoided the Cascade areas because both groups just didn't get along?

        Comment


        • CMD wrote:

          I just want to thank everyone for making this, in the long run, a very educational thread
            I second that statement Charlie!
          I have to admit, Stanford's book certainly makes some very good points. I'm not sure he's proven anything but he certainlty has my attention.
          Bill, thanks for your earlier answer to my posting about outre'passe.
          Southern Connecticut

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          • cgode, if you will click on the link I posted to Ashley Smallwood’s paper (part of her dissertation) you can how Southeastern Clovis points were made. As she shows in color photographs Clovises at the Topper Clovis site started out as overshot flaked thin, wide bladed performs that were flat in cross section.
            This manufacturing method for Clovis is true of Clovis throughout the entire Eastern USA.

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            • This is a fantastic thread. I enjoyed reading through the ups and downs. Many thanks to all who have made this informational thread!
              TN formerly CT Visit our store http://stores.arrowheads.com/store.p...m-Trading-Post

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              • Bill wrote:

                Jack the Cascade type is interesting because it is an early type that seems to be found mostly in the Pacific Northwest. Clovis finds have been extremely rare in this area and I would like to know why.
                Since the people who used Cascade and Clovis points were around at pretty much the same time, could Clovis folks have avoided the Cascade areas because both groups just didn't get along?
                __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________________
                Bill
                A lot of the area is volcanic and I think a lot of the Clovis camps are covered in volcanic ash and lava.
                Denney Presley who had one of the larget collectios of Great Basin material talked about the lack of Paleo finds and he said the volcanic action covered it up.
                I have only owned one Clovis from the west and it was found along the Yellowstone River where it flowes down Paridise Valley into Montana. It is made of a translucent white opalized agatized wood. It has two COA's on it.
                Jack





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                • Jack I don't believe the Volcanic ash covered it up the Clovis stuff at all and here's what I think.
                  In the Pacific Northwest, Cascade point type dates to around 11,500 years ago. That would make the Cascade people contemporaneous with Clovis. It is very likely that the Cascade point makers and users were folks from Northeastern Asia who were exploring the area for possible habitation and perhaps even had begun to live there.
                  Not all early people got along with different groups and some may have been downright hostile to others. I don’t believe Clovis in that area that was covered with volcanic ash but there never was Clovis there at all and why was that?
                  I believe the Cascade and Clovis people just didn’t get along. The Clovis folks avoided the Pacific Northwest to avoid the messy fights that would have been inevitable.
                  By the way, I apologize in advance because I don't believe that your beautiful agate point is Clovis at all. It isn’t even a close call, sorry.

                  Comment


                  • Bill wrote:

                    Jack I don't believe the Volcanic ash covered it up the Clovis stuff at all and here's what I think.
                    In the Pacific Northwest, Cascade point type dates to around 11,500 years ago. That would make the Cascade people contemporaneous with Clovis. It is very likely that the Cascade point makers and users were folks from Northeastern Asia who were exploring the area for possible habitation and perhaps even had begun to live there.
                      Not all early people got along with different groups and some may have been downright hostile to others. I don’t believe Clovis in that area that was covered with volcanic ash but there never was Clovis there at all and why was that?
                    I believe the Cascade and Clovis people just didn’t get along. The Clovis folks avoided the Pacific Northwest to avoid the messy fights that would have been inevitable.
                    By the way, I apologize in advance because I don't believe that your beautiful agate point is Clovis at all. It isn’t even a close call, sorry.
                      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
                    Bill
                    I disagree with your comment that there was no Clovis in the NW, there are some Clovis sites there but not much. I agree that there a lot more Cascade artifacts found in the area than Clovis, far more. See information below that backs up what I am saying.
                    Jack
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
                    Dietz Site Clovis:
                    This report was done by Judy Willig, Mel Aikens and John Fagan.
                    The Dietz Site is the only Clovis campsite on record in Oregon. Five areas along the floor of a dry lake basin were identified as Clovis based on the presence of fluted points and point fragments, fluting flakes and blanks broken during fluting. The Clovis areas did not contain stemmed points that were found along the edge of the lake basin at a slightly higher elevation. The site was investigated by the BLM, University of Oregon and University of Washington.
                    The data indicated that small groups of Clovis people stopped at this location several times to rework broken dart points. The people had collected the foreshaft with their broken stone points, and then camped near an obsidian source so they could remove the broken points and either rework them, or discard them and make a replacement point. They saved up many broken points and came to this location just to repair their hunting and processing tools. For example, six of the twenty-eight tools were broken Clovis point bases. Each of the bases had been manufactured at a different location (made from obsidian not found locally), and had been removed from the haft and tossed away. The flaking debris from making the replacement points was from local obsidian cobbles. This suggests that the group had a large territory with quarries scattered around. Which ever quarry was nearby when they decided to repair was then used to make replacement points. The Clovis occupants brought a greater number of artifacts made from other quarries to this area than the stemmed sites contained.
                    Twenty-two of the tools were unfinished items or manufacturing failures or flute flakes from successful points removed from the area when they were put onto the foreshaft. Two scrapers were found, one a side scraper made on a flake and the other an end scraper on another flake. In addition, long obsidian blade-like flakes were removed form the local cobbles, probably as knives. I speculate that they may have been used to cut meat from larger pieces similar to the methods used by Eskimo when they are eating.
                    The sites were located along the margins of a small shallow lake or pond. Since this basin is dry today, conditions were wetter than today. The period of occupation was probably between 11,500 and 11,000 years ago. Later, the lake increased in size and depth, and stemmed points are found in campsites in greater numbers and density. During this time, the lake probably had an 80 meter wide marsh habitat around its edge, providing a great deal of food. The stemmed tradition is dated between 10,800 and 7,000 years ago. The two separate shorelines clearly separated the groups in time and space. The later higher lake level appears to have been stable for quite some time and supported hunters and gatherers in a seasonally productive micro-environment... as the late Judy Willig put it: "a well-watered 'sweet-spot' of food and water resources which would have made it ecologically attractive to these early people"
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
                    Long Tom Basin Clovis:
                    The Long Tom River is a 25-mile (40 km) tributary of the Willamette River in western Oregon in the United States. It drains an area at the south end of the Willamette Valley between Eugene and Corvallis.
                    A Clovis point was discovered near the banks of the Long Tom and noted in Freidel (el al. 1989: 99). The Noti-Veneta project stimulated a SHPO funded project to study the alluvial stratigraphy of the Veneta area (Freidel el al. 1989). A dates of 9660 ±140 and 9130 ±200 were obtained from a feature (35LA658), just above the time used to differentiate between Early Archaic and PaleoAmerican. 35LA861 gave a date of 9485 ±90 and 35LA860 a date of 7690 ±80. The data indicated that groups were gathering hazel nuts, acorns and camas and roasting them between 9700-9500 years ago. The Long Tom excavations indicated that beginning about 9500 years ago and ended about 7700 years ago, the soils stabilized after a period of deposition and groups camped on the levees and flood plain . The study blurs the Archaic and PaleoAmerican traditions, suggesting plant gathering was an early and important aspect of the economy.
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
                    McKenzie Basin Clovis:
                    The McKenzie river starts on the western slope of the Cascade Range, starts on the east at the volcanic Three Sisters and extends approximately ninety miles to the west. The main McKenzie River is joined by the South Fork below the town of McKenzie Bridge, the Blue River at the town of Blue River, and the Mohawk River just north of Springfield. The McKenzie joins the Willamette River just southwest of Coburg.
                    A Clovis point was found on the Mohawk River in 1959 in the surface gravel near Springfield was reported by Allely (1975). It had been rolled and scoured down the river from an unknown source.
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
                    In Texas the Gault Site is "a well-watered 'sweet-spot' of food and water.
                    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
                    You are not the first to say it is not Clovis - but Dwain Rogers and Bill Jackson say it is, so that is what I will go on.

                    Comment


                    • I'm sorry Jack but I still don't believe that point is Clovis. I would love to see what else in their site report the Archaeologists were calling Clovis.
                      I'm afraid those folks were out of their league and saw only saw Clovis just because they were "Clovis from Siberia believers". They should examine the artifacts that Dr. Collins and his people dug up at the Gault site. They just might modify their site report.
                      I find it hard to believe that bill Jackson typed that point as Clovis!

                      Comment


                      • I think there is a very logical expanation of why there are fewer Clovis sites west of the Rocky Mtns. The corridor that was used for human migration into N.A. followed the east side of the Rocky Mtns, along the foothills and more plains type geography. The Rocky Mtns. posed a huge, very formidable obstacle, and with the steepness and roughness of the mountains, there just wasn't any need to cross them. To the east, lay wide open praire terrain, with plenty of grass which would be ideal for large game habitats, there was plenty of water from the mtn. runoffs, and all this would have been ideally suited for campsites.
                        http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                        • Maybe some of the early arrivals into Western North America came via a Pacific Coast "kelp highway" route as well as through an ice free corridor. The remains of Arlington Man might support the possibility of such a route:
                          http://www.nps.gov/chis/historyculture/arlington.htm

                          Rhode Island

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                          • You are absolutely correct. Which adds more evidence of several migrations into NA, and in all probability, early hunters migrated into NA by routes that we haven't discovered yet.
                            http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                            • pkfrey wrote:

                              You are absolutely correct. Which adds more evidence of several migrations into NA, and in all probability, early hunters migrated into NA by routes that we haven't discovered yet.
                                I just stumbled onto this, Paul. Informative piece folks!
                              http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-m...merica-1.10562
                              Rhode Island

                              Comment


                              • Great posts pkfrey and CMD and if you're talking Preclovis, I am completely with both of you because I believe you are right.
                                pkfrey, you have a good idea about folks avoiding the Rocky Mountains because it is logical and it makes sense.
                                I believe both routes of entry CMD posted were used at different times.

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