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  • Canine Engraving

    Canine Engraving
    Posted by [CMD]

    Moderator Note: this thread was first posted in 2011 but failed to transfer across to the new forum when the software was updated, and so has been re-created manually.

    I like posting stuff that is out of the ordinary, and this fits the bill. It was supposidly found in Orleans, Cape Cod and is made of slate. The auction listing called it a fox. The bushy tail does suggests that to me, but I guess I'll settle for canine, though my wife thinks it resembles a pig! But not with that tail!
    Charlie

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    Posted by [CMD]
    A closeup:

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    Posted by [CMD]
    Think my terminology might be a bit off. Probably more accurate to say incised, the lines are shallow, rather then engraved.

    Posted by [Scorpion68]
    Charlie - interesting that. My initial thought was it looks like a goat, with horns but, like your wife says, it's fat like a pig. Wonder where those folks got fox - maybe they ain't never seen a fox. I never saw one that looked like that. Neat tho ---Chuck

    Posted by [LARRY1]
    looks like a cow

    Posted by [ksrocks]
    Very different but nice Charlie, had to look real close at first. How would you put an age to that or is it even possible?

    Posted by [greywolf22]
    Its an undocked sheep meaning the tail was not cut off. Indains did not have sheep, or pigs, or cows until the Euros showed up. The Spaniards were the first to bring them in. This means this was made after the Spaniards showed up with sheep. Cape Code let me do a little thinking here.
    Jack

    Undocked lambs

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    Posted by [Lithophylic]
    Looks kinda like a cowpig to me. Also, I don't remember ever seeing leg detail such as that on other pics/drawings I have seen.
    Last edited by painshill; 04-13-2020, 04:30 PM.
    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

  • #2
    Posted by [greywolf22]
    You know the Vikings traveled in that Cape Cod area and the Vikings knew all about sheep. I may be a little crazy here, but a Viking might have picked that up and etched that sheep on it or the Vikings brought sheep to their Northeast coast settlements and an Indian was so impressed with them he did the etching. Letting my imagination run a little crazy here.

    The Northmen.
    CapeCodHistory.us home
    historical literature
    posted Jan 2007

    It is well known that the Northmen, inhabiting Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, were at a very early period of the Christian era acquainted with the science and practice of navigation, far surpassing the people of the south of Europe in building vessels and managing them upon the sea. The adventures of this people, however, were of a mere predatory character, and possessed nothing of that thirst for the glory of discovery which so eminently distinguished those of the navigators of the southern countries. As early as the year 861, in one of their piratical excursions, Iceland was discovered; and, about the year 889, Greenland was peopled by the Danes under Friedlos, better known as Eireck Rauda, Eric Raude, and sometimes as Eric the Red, a noted chieftain.

    Very early in the eleventh century, Biarne or Biorne, sometimes called Biron in historical writings, an Icelander, who had visited many different countries with his father Heriulf for trading purposes, being accidentally separated from his parent on one of these voyages, in directing his course to Greenland was driven by a storm southwesterly to an unknown country, level in its formation, destitute of rocks, and thickly wooded, having an island near its coast. After the abatement of the storm, performing his intended voyage to Greenland, he sailed, in the year 1002, on a voyage of discovery in company with Leif (son of Eric the Red), a person of adventurous disposition, whose desire he had awakened by a recital of his accidental discovery. In this expedition Biron officiated as guide. It is supposed that the countries which these men visited on this voyage, and which they called Helluland on account of the rocky soil, Markland (the woody), and Vinland dat gode (the good wine country), were in the neighborhood of the island of Newfoundland and the gulf of St. Lawrence; and that the inhabitants, who from their diminutive size they called Skraelings, were the aborigines of that region.

    It has been stated that the Icelandic navigators not only visited the shores of Greenland and Labrador, but in often-repeated voyages they explored the sea-coast of America as far south as New Jersey, establishing colonies in Nova Scotia and Newfoundland. They are supposed to have been in New England on some of their voyages, and it has been suggested by Wheaton in his history of the Northmen that they even anchored near the harbor of Boston; but of this the tradition is very vague and unsatisfactory.

    Leif, the son of Eric, was succeeded in his explorations by his brother Thorwald, who, in the year 1003, attempted discoveries more to the southward than those previously made, and who is said to have fallen in with several islands, perhaps those lying south of the Massachusetts coast, destitute of inhabitants. In a subsequent year, 1004, pursuing a more easterly and then a northerly direction, he passed a cape to which he gave the name of Kiliarnese, by some supposed to be Cape Cod, and, following the coast in a circuitous course, discovered an abrupt promontory well covered with forest-trees, which he named Krossaness, and which archaeologists have been led to think was one of the headlands of Boston Harbor, called by the Plymouth forefathers, in honor of their early agent, Point Allerton, the northerly termination of Nantasket Beach. The voyage of this last individual ended as it commenced by wintering at Vinland previous to a return to Greenland, the place from which it was projected.

    Another of the same class of adventurers, but a person of considerable distinction and wealth among his countrymen, Thorfin by name, made a similar attempt in the same direction in 1007. By this time the route to Wineland, the Vinland of Leif, had become well known to the Icelandic and Norwegian navigators; and Thlorfin, with more than usual encouragement, and an outfit ample for the days in which it was made, set sail in three vessels, with sevenscore men, with the intention of planting a colony in some of the regions that had been discovered by his predecessors, or upon some new and more suitable territory, which he perchance might fall in with on his voyage. Whether the island abounding with wild ducks, to which he gave the name of Straumey, was Martha's Vineyard, and his new haven of Straumfiords was Buzzard's Bay, cannot well be determined; but it is related that, in prosecuting his investigations farther in an inland direction by passing through a river giving prospect of the desired land, and arriving in an expanse of water bountifully supplied with grain and fruitful vines, he met with savages whose description is not much unlike that of the New-England Indians, and who forced him, much against his will, to give up his contemplated design and return home, not only frustrated but disheartened from making further attempts; and thus terminated, with the exception of a few smaller attempts, the voyages of the Icelandic navigators and adventurers upon the American Continent

    Sources:

    Vikings in America, a web site by D.L. Ashman, including

    The Skeleton in Armor, a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
    The Norsemen, a poem by John Greenleaf Whittier

    debunking the Viking burial: Copper Implements. W. M. Beauchamp. Science 17 (414): 25-27. 9 Jan 1891

    The Norse Discoverers of America, the Wineland Sagas.
    review author: W. P. Ker. The English Historical Review, Vol. 37 (146): 267-269. April 1922

    This is a review of: The Norse Discoverers of America, the Wineland Sagas. Translated and discussed by G. M. Gathorne-Hardy.

    With a favorable mention of idea that 'Wonderstrand' was Cape Cod

    Jack
    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

    Comment


    • #3
      Posted by [deets2000]
      Here's a link for the free ebook of the Wineland Sagas. Thanks for the info Jack. I find all of these references interesting and enjoy the education.

      -Jason




      Posted by [turkeytail]
      Im with Larry.....cow!

      Posted by [greywolf22]
      Mark
      No cow has a tail like that, its a sheep. Look close. LOL.
      Jack


      Posted by [CMD]
      If not for the tail, cow's not a bad guess. But Jack's suggestion of undocked sheep seems dead on, based on the photos. I tried looking at everything in the canine family but sheep does seem closest. Cow or sheep would mean after European contact. Vikings are an interesting notion. New England has long had associations with the Vinland sagas. And the idea of Vinland in New England has long fascinated me. In 1985 some friends and I tracked down a possible Viking inscription on the shores of Narragansett Bay. At the link below, scroll down to the section titled "North Kingstown Runestone, Rhode Island" for a couple of photos and short description. Only a very short sail from Cape Cod.

      www.neara.org/bochnak/phototour.htm
      Link no longer working


      Posted by [CousinDan]
      the back leg does look like a country ham....mmmmm hammmm!

      Posted by [greywolf22]
      Charlie
      Neat read. I would like to see that etching under high magnifcation to see if it has any patination. How does it look under a scope?
      Jack

      Posted by [greywolf22]
      Jason
      Thanks for the link. Very interesting.
      Jack

      Posted by [CMD]
      I just showed my wife the photos Jack posted of the undocked sheep and she thought right away that was the closest to what we see on the pendant. Don't know who or what inspired such an image. The possible Viking inscription we found is now generally known as the Narragansett Bay Runestone. It's located at one of the widest vantage points on the bay and is probably the most interesting thing I've found in my travels.
      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

      Comment


      • #4
        Posted by [CMD]
        greywolf22 wrote:
        Charlie
        Neat read. I would like to see that etching under high magnifcation to see if it has any patination. How does it look under a scope?
        Jack

        Jack, no scope, but under a 20x loupe it looks good. Actually, when cow was first suggested, my immediate thought was "contact or artifake". But it looks like the incising is as old as the piece.


        Posted by [greywolf22]
        Charlie
        That is one of the most amazing artifacts I have seen in a long time if authentic. It could be a first contact with the Vikings or soon after artifact. I would send it to Jim and let him have a look at it.

        The Wabanaki in Maine were among the first Native people to be affected by contact with Europeans. By the late 1500s, European fishermen and explorers began visiting Maine’s shores. They exchanged ideas, technology and material objects with Native residents. Native people traded beaver pelts and other animal furs that were especially valued by Europeans. They shared their knowledge of the landscape, plants and animals, as well as their technologies, without which Europeans would have had more difficulties adapting to the New World.

        This artifact could have been made on contact with the Vickings or could have been made around 1500's or after, after contact with the later Europeans.

        Jack


        Posted by [CMD]
        greywolf22 wrote:
        Charlie
        That is one of the most amazing artifacts I have seen in a long time if authentic. It could be a first contact with the Vikings or soon after artifact. I would send it to Jim and let him have a look at it.
        The Wabanaki in Maine were among the first Native people to be affected by contact with Europeans. By the late 1500s, European fishermen and explorers began visiting Maine’s shores. They exchanged ideas, technology and material objects with Native residents. Native people traded beaver pelts and other animal furs that were especially valued by Europeans. They shared their knowledge of the landscape, plants and animals, as well as their technologies, without which Europeans would have had more difficulties adapting to the New World.
        This artifact could have been made on contact with the Vickings or could have been made around 1500's or after, after contact with the later Europeans.

        Other then Paleo, the Contact period interests me the most. If it is a European animal pictured, that's very exciting. Thanks to all for the suggestions. I probably would have gone to my grave thinking it was an obese fox!
        Charlie


        Posted by [CliffJ]
        I'd like to see the hole up close and personal before deciding if I think it's old or not. It looks more like a 3/16" steel drill hole than anything, but maybe not. I also do not like the bevels on the piece or the parallel scratches on the surface in places. It definitely needs more examination before drawing conclusions either way.

        Posted by [greywolf22]
        Charlie
        Send this piece to Jim Bennett or Cliff Jackson and let them look at it. If its authentic it will open up a lot of debate.
        Jack
        I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

        Comment


        • #5
          Posted by [CMD]
          CliffJ wrote:
          I'd like to see the hole up close and personal before deciding if I think it's old or not. It looks more like a 3/16" steel drill hole than anything, but maybe not. I also do not like the bevels on the piece or the parallel scratches on the surface in places. It definitely needs more examination before drawing conclusions either way.

          Cliff, this is the best I can do without a real macro lens. On the side with the image, the hole measures slightly over 2/16 inches:

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          Posted by [CMD]
          On the other side, the hole measures just under 4/16 inches. I don't know slate all that well, so I won't be stunned if it's an artifake. On the other hand, I got it from someone who knows his slate and I would be surprised if it slipped by him.
          Charlie

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          Posted by [CMD]
          greywolf22 wrote:
          Charlie
          Send this piece to Jim Bennett or Cliff Jackson and let them look at it. If its authentic it will open up a lot of debate.
          Jack

          I'll do that Jack. And it will be the first thing I've ever sent out for opinions!
          It will be awhile though, on a fixed income, and looking at some sizable bills. But, sometime this spring or summer I will send it to one or the other and I will post their verdict here.
          Charlie


          Posted by [greywolf22]
          That hole looks good to me. Will see what Cliff says, he knows this stuff.
          Jack

          Posted by [CliffJ]
          The hole looks better than it did in the first pics, at least they made it conical, whenever it was made. Now please take some pics of the sheep at the same distance as these pics.
          Cliff.


          Posted by [CMD]
          CliffJ wrote:
          The hole looks better than it did in the first pics, at least they made it conical, whenever it was made. Now please take some pics of the sheep at the same distance as these pics.
          Cliff.

          Well, what we probably need here is a better photographer. I'm using a Nikon Coolpix L110, which I guess is a decent point and shoot, but I haven't taught myself, or learned from someone else, how to get a respectable focus really close in macro mode. I don't think the close-ups of the hole were in good focus and this is the best I can do right now with the animal. Not good at all IMO, but I'll also try again when the sun returns this weekend. There's just not enough light here now.

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          Posted by [greywolf22]
          Looks good also. Lets see what Cliff says.
          Jack
          Last edited by painshill; 04-13-2020, 04:31 PM.
          I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

          Comment


          • #6
            Posted by [CMD]
            CliffJ wrote:
            I'd like to see the hole up close and personal before deciding if I think it's old or not. It looks more like a 3/16" steel drill hole than anything, but maybe not. I also do not like the bevels on the piece or the parallel scratches on the surface in places. It definitely needs more examination before drawing conclusions either way.

            I noticed what you can see in these photos a couple days ago and got good enough light to photograph yesterday. I believe I'm looking at modern tool marks. I will offer no excuse for a lack of due dilagence when I acquired this pendant a couple years ago. I could pass the buck to a seller who has handled hundreds of pieces of slate, but I was obviously too casual with this one. This first photo is the end closest to the hole.

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            Posted by [CMD]
            A closeup of the end closest to the hole.......

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            Posted by [CMD]
            The end furthest from the hole, or the bottom of the pendant. I didn't see this coming but unless Cliff or someone with more expertise says otherwise, I think the pendant is an artifake.
            Charlie

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            Posted by [wmwallace]
            That is fascinating. I bet the Indian was sitting there trying to describe this strange animal the whitement brought with them to his buddy. And finally out of frustation took his graver out of his pocket and drew it on his pendent.
            At this point his buddy was quite certain that his fellow tribesmen had been licking toads again and reported him to the tribal medicine man!! LOL- Hey it could have happened like that you never know-Bill


            Posted by [CliffJ]
            Charlie,
            I think you are correct. It looks like a belt sander job. The strange beveling in the first pics hinted at what you are showing in your last pics.
            Cliff


            Posted by [CMD]
            CliffJ wrote:
            Charlie,
            I think you are correct. It looks like a belt sander job. The strange beveling in the first pics hinted at what you are showing in your last pics.
            Cliff

            Cliff, you and Jack got me to look closer. In the last analysis, your observations led me to the truth, and for that I thank you.
            Charlie


            Posted by [greywolf22]
            Charlie
            It was interesting while it lasted. Now who would draw a sheep on the slate? LOL.
            Jack

            Posted by [deets2000]
            At least you're level headed enough to accept it for what it is although I like reading the posts by individuals who under no circumstances would consider their piece to be nothing or a fake. For the simple fact your respectable I wish it was real. But as Jack said who would put a sheep on slate makes it humorous.

            Posted by [turkeytail]
            Is the seller still around Charlie?


            Posted by [CMD]
            turkeytail wrote:
            Is the seller still around Charlie?

            Yes he is, Mark. I'll be letting him know.


            Posted by [CMD]
            This thread is over a month old, but nothing dies in cyberspace and I want to bring a certain closure here. Although purchased more then 2 years ago, the piece came with a lifetime guarantee and the seller refunded my purchase in full. Cliff Jackson and Jack Bates, each in their own way, nudged me to make a more thorough look. Lesson learned! Good example of the benefit that can result from sharing things with other collectors on this forum. I know I can't argue with putting money in my pocket. Thanks for the help, guys!
            Charlie

            Posted by [turkeytail]
            Honest seller. Good to hear ya got a refund Charlie! It has happened to all of us, but some may not know it .....yet! Mark.

            Posted by [gregszybala]
            Congrats Charlie, Good it worked out, you gotta feel better!

            Posted by [CMD]
            Mark, Greg, thanks. Certainly never anticipated the direction the thread would take, but it was a good thing, and I'm pleased.
            Charlie

            Posted by [greywolf22]
            Charlie
            I really liked that sheep.I wonder why anyone would etch a sheep? Glad you got your money back
            Jack
            Last edited by painshill; 04-13-2020, 04:33 PM.
            I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

            Comment

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