sword found at indian camp sites.

[painshill]

sword found at indian camp sites.
Posted by [dingus]

Moderator Note: this thread was first posted in 2011 but failed to transfer across to the new forum when the software was updated, and so has been re-created manually.

This is a sword I found at indian camp site. why would the indians have a sword. I would like to know if it is spanish or not. it was found in near neodesha kansas. south east kansas.





Posted by [turkeytail]
Are there any markings, hallmarks left on it?

Posted by [Scorpion68]
Now that is a relic. It sure looks old. Simple - not elaborate. Kinda like a fighting sword or sabre. Gonna be interesting to see what this turns out to be. ---Chuck

Posted by [Pullenrock]
No way thats spanish i dont think....I dont know if you guys familiar with the famous Bell Ranch In new mexico..they has there own museum,...well lots of spanish items have been found there including a sword or two including a breast plate..the handles have the big hand guards on them whatever they are called..That looks more like a sword of the knights of the round table type..which course not from here....Just what i thinks.Could be a sword crafted in the colonial days are sooner also.Sometimes when i find a site in the middle of nowhere i tends to believe im the first there until i find a tunafish tin.....jn

Posted by [dingus]
No marks that you can see. when I found it it was stuck in the ground like a headstone. probably burial.

Posted by [greywolf22]
Neat old sword. Could be a Spanish Colonial Short Sword, 1790 - 1820
Jack

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Interesting Jack update us?

[painshill]

Posted by [greywolf22]
Why the Native Americans ultimately lost America By Rob Write

What caused the downfall of the American Indian?
HOW GODS OF WAR PAVED THE TRAIL OF TEARS.

Centuries without exposure to war or epidemic diseases led to the developmental inequalities which caused the downfall and conquest of the Native American Indians at the hands of the European settlers.

From the time of Columbus’s first expeditions in the New World, the indigenous population which had been masters of the American continent for 14,000 years began fighting a losing battle which would ultimately end in the destruction of their culture. It was their inexperience at war, plus the fact that they’d never developed formidable weapons, combine with their lack of immunity to the diseases introduced by the Europeans, which led to the Indians—who were initially far superior in number— meeting with ignominious defeat.

One obvious reason for the Euro victory over the Indian tribes was their superior weaponry. They had war technology which the locals could not compete with. But why did the colonists have such superior arms? A sensible guess would be that the Europeans were an older culture. The earliest traces of European ancestry goes back over 100,000 years, compared to 14,000 for the Indians. That head start would logically allow for the superiority of development. Yet, history doesn’t support this theory. For example, sentient life existed in African over a million years earlier than in Europe, and yet the Europeans had guns long before the African people ever imagined such a thing. So, if time is not the key factor, what is?

A reason that the Europeans had weapons beyond the Indians was due to their long history of warfare and violence. Countries on the continent of Europe routinely fought over territory or religion. Even when they set out to colonize, they knew they would also have to deal with rival nations that would be claiming their own share of this vast new land. There had long been animosity between Spain, France, England, and the Dutch. These were opponents who would be difficult to overcome. The Europeans were armed and ready, tempered by years of bloodshed.

Native Americans, on the other hand, knew little of all-out war. Despite their mythical image as savages, they were actually much more civilized in the way they settled their tribal disputes. Battles at the time were ritualistic. Intermittent violence did occur, but the nature of pre-contact Indian war was far different from the wars known in Europe. Both in scale and in duration, their skirmishes were minuscule compared to Europe. The Indian natives could not conceive of the multi-year conflicts that dogged Euro history. Indians fought in small forays, with limited numbers of warriors. Their battles were often a game of ‘chicken’ where one side or the other backed down in the face of the fiercer opponent. They tried not to kill other Indians if it was not necessary and so had no need for guns or cannons. All this caused the American tribes to be very primitive in their weaponry, whereas the Europeans were veritable Gods of War.

For instance, when the Spanish conquered the Incas, they not only brought guns, but had the advantage of armor as well. The Inca’s fought with blunt clubs and had no armor at all. Further, the Incans did not have domesticated animals, and so the Spanish gained a tremendous advantage by charging in on horseback.The psychological effect of seeing men riding on horses had as powerful an effect on the Incans as the Spanish swords did.

Soon, Incan leader Athhuallpa fell at Cajamarca and the Spanish claimed their land. Cortes would go on to do the same to Montezuma and the Aztecs, winning for similar reasons. Earlier, they had Slaughtered the tribes of the West Indies, gaining the Conquistadors a scathing indictment from a Spanish Friar in 1542.

Up in North America, the Native American people alternately became allies and enemies of the newly arrived settlers from Europe. Surely there was a sense of dread among the local tribes concerning these mysterious people who arrived by ship, bringing strange animals and stranger weapons? What did they think would happen in the long run?

The Native American tribes were not accustomed to visitors in their lands. These new arrivals confused and frightened them. Therefore, they made some mistakes which exacerbated hostilities with the colonists. A Chesapeake Indian tribe ambushed the first arrivals making landfall in Virginia. Things didn’t start off well and the settlers became very suspicious of the indigenous people. And the Indians surely felt the same, but some had their own motivations for contact.

Powhattan, leader of the powerful Algonquian tribe of Indians, was a clever man. He saw the newcomers as a potential source of power. They had things of value, like guns and gunpowder. Powhattan was in the process of consolidating his power in the region. Weapons would be invaluable to him. To this end, he became a friend and benefactor to the new settlement. Although their presence was a potentially destabilizing element, he felt they were worth the risk. He brought them food to help them survive their first long, cold winter.

He continued to trade with them afterwards, supplying food in exchange for weapons.It was, quite likely, this dependency on the Indians that increased the settler’s distrust of the locals. They needed Powhattan to get through the winter and were very much afraid that he would exploit their weakness. They expected the local Indians to take advantage of their weakness and double cross them. The settlers kept waiting for the other shoe to drop, and their increasing paranoia evolved into hostility against the native tribes.

When a misunderstanding between the two sides caused Powhattan to break ties, the settlers immediately assumed this was the double cross they had waited for and started to take food from the Indians by force. Powhattan struck back but he was overwhelmed, and the Indian wars began in earnest in North America. As the Colonial population increased, they began to take what they wanted and enforce their ways upon these people they thought of as merely “primitive barbarians”. They felt they had a God given right to depose those whom they saw as little more than animals. The pattern of “Indian removal” continued until the 19th century, when the last Indian resistance was gone.Thus, the Europeans practiced their time honed art of war, something they had much more experience in than the Indians. They had the better armaments, as well as one other unexpected secret weapon.

A surprise advantage that the Europeans had was that the Native tribes had lived isolated from epidemic diseases. Nor did they have herd animals, which often acted as conduits of infectious diseases. Bacterial infections such as smallpox, diphtheria, measles, whooping cough, scarlet fever and others were introduced to the Indians who had no natural immunities to them. Cortes’ 1521 victory over the Aztecs was aided by a terrible smallpox epidemic that cut the Aztec population in half. The devastating release of these germs was so catastrophic to the native people, it eventually killed 90% percent of the indigenous population. With their best warriors dead, and the rest demoralized, thinking their Gods had deserted them, the surviving Indians were no match for the growing number of Europeans.

Indian power faded steadily and by the 19th century, they were no longer a military threat to the established government of the United States of America. Steps were taken to “civilize” and indoctrinate the conquered Indians tribes into the culture of the victors. The curse of developmental inequality left them with nothing.

Societies evolve to exactly where they need to be to survive in the time and place. The Indians were well suited for life on the American continent, but that didn’t prepare them for the intervention of an unexpected predator or disease. European settlers and their guns, along with smallpox and other diseases, were outside the scope of what they were prepared to deal with.

The Indians also had no domesticated herd animals. Ironically, they were culpable in the killing and making extinct of large mammals rather than domesticating them, as when the Paleo-Indians killed off the Mastodons. If they hadn’t, could they have used them as the Indians of India do? As transportation and as beasts of burden? Would it have made a difference? And would these herd animals have produced germs that allowed the native population to develop immunities to European diseases? If large mammals still existed during the Euro invasion, would the result have been any different? I believe that this mistake made during their early hunter/gatherer days may have ultimately added a nail to the coffin of Indian culture.

I maintain that centuries of life without war curtailed the Indian ability to develop the technology to defend themselves. And further, that their isolation, the lack of pack animals and the extinction of the Mastodons caused the Indians to have insufficient natural defenses against epidemic diseases. These combined reasons destroyed any chance that the Indians, despite their vastly superior numbers, may have had to drive off the settlers and retain the land of their birth.

[painshill]

Posted by [greywolf22]
Need to know how long it is. But from the lighter it looks around 20" to 25" long? Spanish short swords are around 20" to 25" long.
Jack

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Whoa!..so when the indians shot their arrows the spanish ,with their armor,marched right on thru and conquered...

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Course disease spaniards brought killed more indians then hitler killed jews...hey jack what time period was cortez?1500'S?

Posted by [turkeytail]
Good read as always Jack!

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Oh! I see Jack...yea very good read...well who was it that brought camels over White man?..i heard scaired them indians?...

Posted by [greywolf22]
Espada Ancha - Spanish Short Sword

The Espada ancha or wide sword was carried by the soldados de cuera. Many of the short swords were made in the northern provinces and were preferred by its soldiers to the larger cavalry saber. The espada ancha was carried in a leather scabbard, attached to the saddle, hilt forward, on the left side, or sometimes on a sling hung over the soldier's right shoulder. The shell langet also allowed the sword to be worn inserted inside of the waist belt.

The espada ancha is a characteristically unique example of swords found in the northern frontiers of New Spain; the area that now comprises northern Mexico and the southwestern United States.

Historians theorize that these swords evolved in the early 18th Century from 17th Century Spanish style civilian or hunting broadswords. Their 76 to 92 cm.(30 to 36 inch) blade length was subsequently reduced to lengths between 45 and 66 cm.(18 and 26 inches).

Sources
The information on this page was contributed by Lee A. Jones.
From his website: Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site . Used with his kind permission.
Copyright ©1998, Lee A. Jones.

Adams, Bill, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico," in Knives '85 (Northbrook, IL: D.B.I. Books, Inc., 1984) p. 21 - 24.

Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) p. 74 - 77.

Hanson, Charles E. , Jr., "The Espada Ancha," Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1978) p. 7 - 11. (Back issues may be purchased from the museum: 6321 Highway 20; Chadron, NE 69337.)


Posted by [Pullenrock]
So very well could be spanish...wow!!!!nice find...man!!!

[painshill]

Posted by [greywolf22]
The Conquest of the Aztecs

1521
The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs in 1521, led by Hernando Cortes, was a landmark victory for the European settlers. Following the Spanish arrival in Mexico, a huge battle erupted between the army of Cortes and the Aztec people under the rule of Montezuma. The events that occurred were crucial to the development of the American lands and have been the subject of much historical debate in present years.

Back to "Later Empires" Chronology
The Spaniards landed on the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico in 1519, where they found the advanced society of the Aztecs. The Aztec Empire stretched along the Valley of Mexico, and Tenochititlan was its capital. The Aztecs had substantial wealth from trading and heavy payments of tribute from conquered peoples. From 1200-1520 the Aztecs flourished and expanded their empire greatly. By the time Hernando Cortes landed in Mexico with his 600 soldiers, the Aztecs were in control of most of present-day Mexico. The expansion of the Aztecs, however, ended with the Spanish Conquest.

A major element of Aztec life was religion. A polytheistic people, they often practiced human sacrifice to please their gods. According to legend, the god Quetzalcoatl, characterized by light skin, red hair, and light eyes, was supposed to return to earth. This appearance is remarkably similar to European appearance, and may be why the Aztecs originally greeted the Spaniards with food, gold, and women.

The Spaniards, however, approached the Aztecs with an entirely different attitude. They had a strong sense of supremacy and intended to convert the natives to Christianity. But their ministering methods were radical. The Spaniards gathered the natives together and shouted the essentials of the Gospel, oblivious to the fact that the Aztecs did not understand their language. If the natives refused to fall to their knees and repent, the Spaniards assumed they were rejecting the word of God and killed or enslaved them.

Upon arrival in North America, Hernando Cortes founded the colony of New Spain in Mexico. On November 8, 1519, he challenged the native forces and entered Tenochititlan, taking the Aztec leader, Montezuma, hostage. This event led to an Aztec uprising that culminated in La Noche Triste. The Aztecs drove the Spaniards out of Tenochititlan in July of 1520. Men from both sides, as well as many Aztec treasures, were lost as a bridge collapsed during the desperate flight of the Spaniards. Nevertheless, Cortes survived, and led the final attacks on Tenochititlan. Throughout the warfare, the Spaniards were aided by the gruesome advantage of disease, for the Europeans brought ailments that the Aztecs had no immunity to. It is estimated that three-quarters of the native population died of violence or diseases like small pox and measles in just the first century of the conquest. Finally, the Aztec capital fell on August 13, 1521. After capturing Tenochititlan, the Spaniards destroyed the city, and built Mexico City on top of it. Just as Tenochititlan was destroyed, most of the Aztec civilization was destroyed with the European Conquest.

Aside from this negative aspect of the European discovery of the New World, the Spaniards had some positive effects on the native population. They introduced domestic animals like horses, sheep, cattle, and pigs to the American Continent. Furthermore, they brought sugar, and different kinds of grains and fruits with them. The discovery of the New World also had a significant impact on the European diet, as the Spaniards brought important products like potatoes, tomatoes, beans and maize back to Europe.

Despite these benefits, the Spanish defeat of the Aztecs has been criticized extensively for many years. It is the center of a huge historical debate focusing on the role of the conquerors. The Spaniards were harsh in their methods and motives, and many people argue that it was not their place at all to encounter new lands and demand control, much less force submission so cruelly. Moreover, virtually all of Aztec culture was carelessly destroyed in the conquest. Nevertheless, the Spaniards did conquer the Aztecs, and whether Western civilization is richer or poorer, this victory has had lasting effects for both native and European people.

Sources:
Matthews, Roy T. and F. DeWitt Platt. Western Humanities. (Mountain View, CA; Mayfield Publishing Co.,1995)

Sullivan, Richard E., Dennis Sherman and John B. Harrison. A Short History of Western Civilization. (Palatino, CA; McGraw-Hill, Inc., 1994)

Wood, Michael. Legacy - The Search for Ancient Cultures. (New York; Sterling Publisher Co., 1994)

[painshill]

Posted by [CousinDan]
1800's in my opinion....judging from what it looks like brass or copper pins missing the rotted off wood handle that the pins would of secured.

Posted by [dingus]
Soward is 20 inches long. I also know of a cave. with this carved in it (nohayesprano) I think it's some kind of a map. I am the great great grandson of jesse james probably seen me on history channel. Found while treasure hunting.

Posted by [dingus]
Soward is 20 inches long. I also know of a cave. with this carved in it (nohayesprano) I think it's some kind of a map. I am the great great grandson of jesse james probably seen me on history channel. Found while treasure hunting.

Posted by [dingus]
Thanks everybody for all your help. you need to check out my collection. I live in a hot spot

Posted by [greywolf22]
Dingus
Would like to see a close up of the hilt.
Jack

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Very cool dudes..ive done some treasure hunting myself in NM..around Tucumcari...following the jesuit priest trails..I know where theres lots of spanish writings and mason markings and death trap signs....whew! i gots stories...My friend and i found silver bars along the spanish trail some years ago but the land owner his dad took them...i know of a mesa called bulldog mesa or saddleback mesa...its bout the size of a football field on top but there are death trap signs and a gian turtle made from boulders on top..you can see from the top that the spanish trails meet there and go in different directions...found a little hole on top by a death trap sign looked into it and wind blew my hair back...any way like i said gots some stories....jon

Posted by [greywolf22]
PR
Good story. Post some more when you have time.
Jack

Posted by [Pullenrock]
A lot of these writings are hard to decipher..i thinks only the ones who carved them know what they mean..wished i could get to the vatican in spain,but still probably wouldnt understand..wherever theres a mason mark theres probably a room thats been walled up..

Posted by [Pullenrock]
I kinow where theres several mason marks..kinda like tic tac toe marks in that area...

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Will do Jack..yall gonna freak out!!!!!!!!

Posted by [CousinDan]
Silver bars and death traps!...you been eating brownies with Turkeytail....LOL!

Posted by [greywolf22]
Post more of your collection on here. Lots of people here would love to see it.
Jack

Posted by [greywolf22]
CD
Its part of the fun. Love a good story even if its twisted up a bit. LMAO.
Jack

[painshill]

Posted by [CousinDan]
I gotta batten down the hatches....storms coming! I love this website! Hope we find out about this sword! Got me interested!

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Seriously my stories are not twisted up a bit...Hang out here at Arrowheads .com.?....I will show you guys as im headed back that way soon......My kids still live there.Ive been holding back till i get there.....jon

Posted by [Pullenrock]
For now?...go to google earth find tucumcari New Mexico..theres a mesa type mountain there called tucumcari mountain...ok..oh bouts few miles south of that mesatype mountain is saddleback mesa..zoom on in and youll see the spanish trails meet up there...ive been all over it..mind blowing.Tucumcari Mountain is right on i-40 south of the highway at tucumcari.Only few of us know this including the land owner...laters...jon

Posted by [CousinDan]
Jon...I drink beer with twisted people all the time...just joking! I believe ya!...just wish I came across something like that!...Daniel

Posted by [greywolf22]
Jon
We are just funning around. We want to hear your and others life stories. Its the reason we come here.
Jack

Posted by [Pullenrock]
Thats cool Buddy i spent 20 yrs right there..i have films but they are the old vcrs lol..google Bell Ranch Jack...night guys

Posted by [CousinDan]
Jon...What's a VCR?..LOL! If your going back take some cool pictures! I'd love to see them!....Daniel

Posted by [greywolf22]
I have around 100 movies on VCR, so I am going to keep mine working. LOL.
Jack

Posted by [Scorpion68]
Jack - Thanks for the educational reminder. I remember some of it from my school days but this narrative puts a little different light on it regarding another possible outcome had the native indians taken a different approach. ---Chuck

Posted by [greywolf22]
When I was in school in the 1950's & 1960"s in Texas we were taught that Indians were bad and white people were good, we were being brainwashed. The Cowboy and Indian movies of the time showed the same thing for the most part. The truth is hard to hide and always is standing there if you go look for it.
Jack

Posted by [CMD]
That's an awesome find and a great education by Jack!

Posted by [dingus]
Thanks for the info greywolf

Posted by [gregszybala]
Wow, great posts all, swords and explorers and indians and death traps and masons and....
This is like reading an historical spooky whodunit! I can't wait to turn the page and read what comes next.

Posted by [wmwallace]
Great find Dingus, and as always Jack a wonderful piece of education. Thanks to both of you you have made my Saturday more interesting than I expected.

Posted by [greywolf22]
Dingus
You are welcome. Love seeing posts like this. Lets me use some of the stuff I have collected over the years.
Jack


Posted by [phbarnesjr]
Pullenrock wrote:
For now?...go to google earth find tucumcari New Mexico..theres a mesa type mountain there called tucumcari mountain...ok..oh bouts few miles south of that mesatype mountain is saddleback mesa..zoom on in and youll see the spanish trails meet up there...ive been all over it..mind blowing.Tucumcari Mountain is right on i-40 south of the highway at tucumcari.Only few of us know this including the land owner...laters...jon

Wow! I googled Tucumcari and what an awesome place! I would like to hear some more of those stories, thanks for the info. Paul


Posted by [Pullenrock]
Tucumcari?....A Commanche Chiefs Daughter Cari was in love with Tucum...Chief forbid them to be together and had the young brave fight another to their death.Well when Tucum was killed the young chiefs daughter,shed be like a princess unh?,anyway took her own life and plunge off the mountain right there at Tucumcari New Mexico..A cool place ive hunted for points there...Just a small short story how of Tucumcari to came to be..My profile picture is the area there....jn

[painshill]

Posted by [dingus]
Thanks for the good stuff guys. when I walk the spirits are with me. sometimes they guide me to places. everybody tells me that I have a gift. it's the james blood in me.





Posted by [dingus]
Thanks for the good stuff guys. when I walk the spirits are with me. sometimes they guide me to places. everybody tells me that I have a gift.

Posted by [Pullenrock]
The true James Blood unh?...I needs to take ya to where william H. Bonney stood..well you could go to Lincoln Yourself over By ruidoso.The Jail still stands today and the reenactments still play out every year...but i knows a place where Billy hid out somewhat a distance from Lincoln County New Mexico...A cave in Bull Canyon San Miquel Co NM..actually north from lincoln co.,approx. 200 miles,along the same mountain line that turns into the Rockies....I knows the land owner....and Nobody knows the cave..Oh!..if hes still alive i know pat garretts grandson ...Jack Garrett..another land owner along the Caprock in quay County New Mexico....Wild?...Yep!!!!When I starts talking...You better hang on....Jon

Posted by [Chiefcw02]
It would be interesting to excavate and see what or who was buried under the sword. Maybe it was a native who was gifted the sword by a traveling Conquistador or maybe the Conquistador himself? Perhaps in full kit. I think the later would be more likely as Indians were less likely to be buried under a sword than a Christian knight would have been. It was symbolic of the Cross to the Spaniards and in a Native burial would more likely have been interred with the body.
Quite an interesting and intriguing find. Wow....

Posted by [dingus]
A friend of mine found some kinda buckle at this site. do you think it is spanish?

Posted by [greywolf22]
Would need to see picture.
Jack


Posted by [dingus]





Posted by [_SORROW_]
AWESOME !

Posted by [okrocks]
This could be a spanish sword. The spaniards were all over Oklahoma, Texas, Kansas and New Mexico at one time mining silver and gold. It could also be French because they did a lot of trading with the native american peoples.

[painshill]

Posted by [painshill]
Note that this is a very old post. See also comment the second time this was posted.

http://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/general-discussion-gc5/what-did-i-find-gc11/22117-sword-found-in-southeast-kansas

Swords like this frequently had ornate hilts... maybe a bone or ivory grip, maybe a brass or even silver cage or basket guard and possibly even a jewel on the pommel. It's not unusual to find discarded blades from which all the nice stuff has been stripped.

Roger


Posted by [vnveteran69]
I would like to know a few questions. first how do you get to become a collector. second, How do you know it was a Indian camp site? and last, where or what state wan this Indian site located?
And yes that is Spanish, carbon dating will give an estimated date of or-gin.

Posted by [Colonel Angus]
I've read the replies and a couple of things kind of stand out.
The handle of this short sword looks like it would of been covered by some kind of material (leather/bone/wood) to be used properly without losing your grip.
Also, since it was stuck in the ground (I'm assuming tip first) the condition is kind of odd. I would think the tip being buried,...would show more long term signs of that since part of the sword was exposed. Perhaps it was found previously by someone else (many years ago) and the person stuck it in the ground tip first disregarding any importance of it other than a old sword. I personally love that find and hope you can update us on anything you have found out about it!! There has been alot of unsubstantiated theories about the Knights Templar and Vikings inhabiting the Americas long before Colombus.

[painshill]

Posted by [painshill]
Colonel Angus wrote:
I've read the replies and a couple of things kind of stand out.
The handle of this short sword looks like it would of been covered by some kind of material (leather/bone/wood) to be used properly without losing your grip.
Also, since it was stuck in the ground (I'm assuming tip first) the condition is kind of odd. I would think the tip being buried,...would show more long term signs of that since part of the sword was exposed. Perhaps it was found previously by someone else (many years ago) and the person stuck it in the ground tip first disregarding any importance of it other than a old sword. I personally love that find and hope you can update us on anything you have found out about it!! There has been alot of unsubstantiated theories about the Knights Templar and Vikings inhabiting the Americas long before Colombus.


Gary, that's a really good point about the condition of the tip. There may be a mystery about what it was doing where it was found, but I don't really think there's any mystery about the sword itself. Knights Templar??? Viking??? I don’t think we need to invoke these kinds of explanations and the styling is, in any case, completely wrong for either of these. I did consult with my sword-collecting friend, but didn't get round to posting a follow-up.

Swords of this type are a progression from the rapier. Originally the rapier had no cutting edge, being a thrusting weapon with a very narrow pointed blade. It soon evolved to have a double edge along much of its length so that it could also be used for slashing.

The image of two guys clashing swords with their noses almost touching is pure Hollywood invention. Sword-fighting was conducted with the sword in one hand and a slender dagger called a poignard in the other. If you were foolish enough to allow your opponent to get that close, he would stick his poignard through the side of your ribcage as you raised your sword arm. Here’s an engraving from 1621:



The poignard evolved to be a parrying dagger with a longer blade and a curled cross-guard so that you could snag your opponent’s sword and wrest it from his grip or potentially even snap his blade or with a twist of your wrist. In later times, these daggers continued to be produced as weapons of personal defence rather than specifically for use in sword-fighting. The curled cross guard was abandoned and the blades got longer. They just about got to 20 inches.

At the same time, the rapier was evolving too and being hybridised with other sword forms. The blade got broader to improve the cutting edges and also shorter for the convenience of the wearer, becoming the shortsword. For most of the 18th century anyone, civilian or military, with pretensions to gentlemanly status would have worn a small sword on a daily basis as a status symbol or fashion accessory.

There comes a crossover point where it’s difficult to say whether an item is a long poignard or a short sword, but it looks a little “hefty” for a dagger. Both weapons have French origins in the middle ages but the styles quickly spread across the rest of Europe, reaching a peak of popularity between the mid 17th and late 18th century. Although the styling of this one is very much “Renaissance” (ie 14th to 17th Century), the styling was imitated well into the 18th Century.

The only odd (but explainable) things about the sword itself are that the workmanship is not great… even for an early example, and proportionally, the tang is very short… probably missing a couple of inches. The poor workmanship might suggest that it was produced locally (blacksmith item), although it could be imported French or Spanish. The short tang is probably the result of a missing pommel and some means of attaching a guard. It might have originally had (something like) this Italian rapier… there are various possible embellishments, configurations and means of attachment:



The Spanish briefly explored Kansas in the 16th century after the conquest of Mexico, but quickly withdrew. The French arrived around 1750. Spain acquired the French rights in 1763 but returned most of the territory to France in 1803. The flintlock pistol appeared in the 17th Century but it wasn’t really until the 18th Century that it became an affordable and preferred alternative to the shortsword for personal defence. That’s the time when many swords were consigned to the junk heap. Post 1750 would therefore seem to be the most likely time frame for the item, I would suggest.

Roger

[painshill]

Posted by [hoakieman]
The sword is very interesting, I believe that it is either French or Spanish, definitely not British or American, it is from the period of Spanish exploration. Could have been traded among indians further West. Great find!

Posted by [greywolf22]
Espada Ancha - Spanish Short Sword

The Espada ancha or wide sword was carried by the soldados de cuera. Many of the short swords were made in the northern provinces and were preferred by its soldiers to the larger cavalry saber. The espada ancha was carried in a leather scabbard, attached to the saddle, hilt forward, on the left side, or sometimes on a sling hung over the soldier's right shoulder. The shell langet also allowed the sword to be worn inserted inside of the waist belt.

The espada ancha is a characteristically unique example of swords found in the northern frontiers of New Spain; the area that now comprises northern Mexico and the southwestern United States.

Historians theorize that these swords evolved in the early 18th Century from 17th Century Spanish style civilian or hunting broadswords. Their 76 to 92 cm.(30 to 36 inch) blade length was subsequently reduced to lengths between 45 and 66 cm.(18 and 26 inches).

Sources
The information on this page was contributed by Lee A. Jones.
From his website: Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site . Used with his kind permission.
Copyright ©1998, Lee A. Jones.

Adams, Bill, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico," in Knives '85 (Northbrook, IL: D.B.I. Books, Inc., 1984) p. 21 - 24.

Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) p. 74 - 77.

Hanson, Charles E. , Jr., "The Espada Ancha," Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1978) p. 7 - 11. (Back issues may be purchased from the museum: 6321 Highway 20; Chadron, NE 69337.)

[painshill]

Posted by [painshill]
greywolf22 wrote:
Espada Ancha - Spanish Short Sword
The Espada ancha or wide sword was carried by the soldados de cuera. Many of the short swords were made in the northern provinces and were preferred by its soldiers to the larger cavalry saber. The espada ancha was carried in a leather scabbard, attached to the saddle, hilt forward, on the left side, or sometimes on a sling hung over the soldier's right shoulder. The shell langet also allowed the sword to be worn inserted inside of the waist belt.
The espada ancha is a characteristically unique example of swords found in the northern frontiers of New Spain; the area that now comprises northern Mexico and the southwestern United States.
Historians theorize that these swords evolved in the early 18th Century from 17th Century Spanish style civilian or hunting broadswords. Their 76 to 92 cm.(30 to 36 inch) blade length was subsequently reduced to lengths between 45 and 66 cm.(18 and 26 inches).
Sources
The information on this page was contributed by Lee A. Jones.
From his website: Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site . Used with his kind permission.
Copyright ©1998, Lee A. Jones.
Adams, Bill, "The Unique Swords of Old Mexico," in Knives '85 (Northbrook, IL: D.B.I. Books, Inc., 1984) p. 21 - 24.
Brinckerhoff, Sidney B. and Chamberlain, Pierce A., Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America 1700 - 1821 (Harrisburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 1972) p. 74 - 77.
Hanson, Charles E. , Jr., "The Espada Ancha," Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1978) p. 7 - 11. (Back issues may be purchased from the museum: 6321 Highway 20; Chadron, NE 69337.)

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Jack

I’m not clear if this was intended to confirm or refute that the sword is an “espada ancha”. For me, it refutes the suggestion. The information is entirely correct but incomplete. While it is true that such swords were produced in shortened lengths, in Spanish, “espada” means “sword” and “ancha” means “broad”. So – even if short – this sword type had, by definition, a wide blade and did not taper dramatically to a sharp point like the example ‘dingus’ found.

The espada ancha was a forerunner of the sabre. It could be used for thrusting, but was designed to be used with a hacking action and its shape reflects that. Early examples tended to be double-edged and later ones were mostly single-edged. More at these links (including pics which show how different the blade form was to what we are looking at from ‘dingus’):

http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/hispanic_period/espada_ancha/espancha.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/espadaan/index.html

By contrast, what ‘dingus’ found is a partially-edged cut and thrust weapon in the rapier family, unsuitable for heavy fighting and this is also reflected in its shape. If it were longer (at least 30 inches and more usually up to 50 inches), the Spanish would call this blade form an “espada ropera” which was produced up until about 1650. “Ropera” means “wearing”… so that would be a dress sword, worn by civilians.

However, the “shortsword” blade form suggests that it’s a later example of a rapier/poignard-like sword for personal defence and likely worn for show. Spanish or French is plausible but expeditionary forces and colonist groups were self-sufficient. They would have had blacksmiths and other craftsmen as part of the entourage so that they could make some of the things they needed. Lower quality workmanship is normally apparent in these items than if they were made at home base.

Roger
[with considerable assistance from my sword-collecting friend Duncan]


Posted by [krysis]
Very awsome find congrats

Posted by [ed homick]
So awesome ! What a find !