New Sites Bring the Earliest Americans Out of the

[Charlie Hatchett]

New Sites Bring the Earliest Americans Out of the Shadows
The sun was setting as archaeologist Kurt Rademaker climbed past 4500 meters in the Andes Mountains of Peru. His goal was to find the source of the obsidian that ancient people on the coast of Peru had used to make stone tools. But right then, “I was looking for someplace to spend the night,” Rademaker says. “I popped over a ridge, right into a rock shelter”—a natural shelter that promised to be a good campsite. That evening he noticed hundreds of black obsidian and red and gray jasper tools littering the area. He’d unknowingly set up his tent right atop the ancient people’s camp...
https://www.academia.edu/8612439/New...of_the_Shadows

[Kyflintguy]

Super interesting read! I truly feel like they are on the verge of finding some hard evidence that may prove pre Clovis people's were roaming around even earlier than 15 thousand years ago. Boy I'd like to see some of those fluted fish tailed points they found. Amazing!

[CMD]

Kyflintguy wrote:

Super interesting read! I truly feel like they are on the verge of finding some hard evidence that may prove pre Clovis people's were roaming around even earlier than 15 thousand years ago. Boy I'd like to see some of those fluted fish tailed points they found. Amazing!

  http://lithiccastinglab.com/cast-pag...lutedpoint.htm
It may be a reference to these.
I agree with you that the arrival times were earlier yet....

[Kyflintguy]

Thanks for the link CMD! I've heard of these before and had all ways wondered what they look like! That's just crazy! If you just found that base you would swear it was a Cumberland. Thanks!

[CMD]

More info on SA fishtail points:

http://file.scirp.org/Html/3-1140028_48022.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=MtcoAs_m_jAC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=fluted+fishtail+projectile+points+from+south+america&source=bl&ots=Cmy9CvYx3Y&sig=WIgoAgSKA9BQgGnrjdVDUKUyIik&hl=en&sa=X&ei=94YyVMa2GO_XigKQ-4GQDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=fluted%20fishtail%20projectile%20points%20from%20south%20america&f=false

http://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Puntas_cola_de_pescado_Cueva_Fell.jpg#mw-imagepage-content

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cueva_Fell

[chase]

I know that this is a little off base from what the article is about, but the fact of a Cumberland like culture and closely related artifacts found in SA. I had the opportunity to sit down with Dr. R. M. Gramly for about twenty minutes and discuss his findings, before he gave his lecture of those same findings.  It was interesting to here that he was getting dates from Cumberland artifacts, that predated Clovis by a  1,000 years. Such as the Dutchess Quarry Caves at 14,888 calender years.  Weather this will become as accepted fact by the archaeological community, I guess is still up for debate. But I would say that what is becoming widely accepted is that Clovis is not the oldest culture in the Americas.

[clovisoid]

CMD, good links.  I didn't have one of them, so I've added it to my library, thanks!!!
As many of you know I was lucky enough to hunt extensively in South America while growing up, and here are most of my Fluted Fishtail points.  I've got a few more pieces buried in a drawer somewhere that I'll have to dig out.
There are two basic types of Fluted Fishtail point, although local archaeologists recognize about 15 different styles (Restrepo, El Inga, Paijan, Rosales, etc.)  There is a Pacific coast style that is found typically West or North of the Andes mostly in Chile, Peru, Ecuador, Central America, Colombia -and- Venezuela.  And there is an Inland tradition that is found East -and- South of the Andes in Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil, Paraguay, Bolivia and inland Colombia -and- Venezuela.
The points on the right side of the black line are the Pacific style.  There are two points and a silver cast of the one of them for better contrast.  The black one is a pretty classic example, the white one is a piece of a super-sized example.  (Like Clovis, both of the types have supersized examples as well as miniature examples.)

  The other side of the line represent some of the Inland style.  They are little more narrow in the northern part of their range, and wider in the south.
Here is mine next to the first one in the picture that CMD posted, bad picture sorry.  These were found about 4,500 miles away from each other, almost twice the distance from coast to coast in the US.

[OnewiththewilD]

that silver cast is wicked cool! obviously the real ones are just amazing!

[Kyflintguy]

WOW! That's just awesome Clovisoid!

[Charlie Hatchett]

Wow! Thanks for sharing, clovisoid!!

[CMD]

Great stuff, clovisoid! I knew you had a lot of experience in SA. Thanks for sharing some of your finds and knowledge!

[Kyflintguy]

This topic truly fascinates me. I would like to see the dots connected on a wider scale so to speak, like is there a connection between what was happening there and the people's who were roaming North America? One question I've wondered is we're the makers of Cumberland co existing with Clovis people's? Excuse me for my ignorance of the subject and I don't want to detract from the topic. You guys have been super helpfull to me and I truly appreciate all the information provided.

[CMD]

Kyflintguy wrote:

This topic truly fascinates me. I would like to see the dots connected on a wider scale so to speak, like is there a connection between what was happening there and the people's who were roaming North America? One question I've wondered is we're the makers of Cumberland co existing with Clovis people's? Excuse me for my ignorance of the subject and I don't want to detract from the topic. You guys have been super helpfull to me and I truly appreciate all the information provided.

  Most scholars likely disagree with Gramly regarding Cumberland being older, but in the Western states, the Haskett point was contemporary and probably older as well. This link is in our info center here; you might enjoy the read:

http://www.ele.net/kunz/mesamonte.htm

Also:

http://www.centerfirstamericans.org/odsy_posters/88.pdf

[chase]

Thanks Charlie, I really liked the PP Presentation.
I agree with Charlie,on Cumberland. I guess I should have made that clear in my last post. The progression from Clovis flutes to Folsom, Redstone, and Cumberland, IMO would fit, as apposed to a Cumberland full flute progressing into a Clovis flute.

[clovisoid]

I was pretty skeptical about the Jobo -and- Cumberland connection that Gramly put forward a few years ago, especially since he hadn't handled any Jobo material until I sent him some points.  But when I saw some of the Cumberland preforms he has, I don't think he's too far off base.  Maybe not Jobo from South America, but an unfluted Cumberland biface looks a lot like a Haskett point.  I don't think you could flute a Haskett and end up with a Cumberland, the flaking is set up differently, but not that differently.
Haskett has a couple of dates that are pre-Clovis but they also overlap with Clovis in other areas, as do their southern cousins the Jobo and Monte Verde bifaces.