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  • Bill wrote:

    CMD, I would like to say one more thing. Why is it my fault you are unhappy? I don't understand how I made discussing this topic difficult at all. I always enjoy talking and arguing about it. I believe it is my special area, my turf and I have really enjoyed this string.
    I will not apologize for being better versed on migrations from the Old World to the New, Clovis,
    Preclovis, the DNA evidence, and so much more than most people with whom I discuss and argue those subjects. If there is anything I am guilty of its knowing this stuff a little too well.
    I have read widely and have written about this subject. I have given talks about them before Professional Archaeologists, avacationalists, and the general public too. Since I have a laboratory research background, I have an excellent understanding of the DNA evidence and know the limitations of it as well.
    I also resent implications and outright statements that I am less worthy, know less about it, or are less capable than some.
    Other than that it’s all good. B)
    Sounds like a winning combination to me. All I can suggest to add to that is to simply pretend, make believe if that's what it takes, fake it if you have to, that your listening audience, in this forum format at any rate, is actually intelligent. If this is truly a case of a man who understands his knowledge towers over everyone else he speaks to, and I'm not trying to be snide, I mean if that is actually the case, then you need to realize the rest of us must be left our freedom to think as we please regardless of a superior knowledge that may be speaking to us. And people should even be able to disparage, poke fun at, even, scientists like Stanford and Bradley without anyone at all getting bent out of shape over it. You do not make me unhappy, BTW. I just do not understand you. If it's now a case of you are a high IQ genius, not being snide, then resist the urge to so forcefully remind us of our status in the intelligence spectrum. I appreciate what you have to say in the above paragraph. I still think you are likely backing the wrong theory. Now can I be dismissed? :laugh:  :laugh:
    Rhode Island

    Comment


    • Bill wrote:

      Jack, of course not but you said you didn't see a Solutrean in those Clovis points and ivory artifacts from Wenatchee Washington.
      I can't believe you didn't see the overshot technology present in the Clovis points from therew  catche alone. That is a huge shout out to the Solutrean. The Solutrean hand is present in Eastern Clovis and accompanying artifacts. I have never seen a Clovis from this area that have overshot bifacial thinning scars.     
      We have already talked about the beautiful agate lanceolate you, Rogers, (and Jackson?) believe is Clovis. I just don't think it is. I agree that it is Paleoindian in age but I just don't see a Clovis point when I look at it.
        __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
      Bill
      You are correct that Clovis and Solutrean fluted points look similar by the pictures I posted, but that does not mean Clovis and Solutrean were made by the same people. Technologies change all the time, creative destruction replaces one with the another, who is to say the natives hunters from the west going to the east could not have developed it. If you look at all the point types and arrowhead types you can see that the natives were in transition all the time. I think the technology was developed here by the natives as they encountered the large game animals they found here. They needed something more effective than what they started with.
      The blade I showed in my first post had similar scar patterns to Solutrean but the shape is quite different from those made by Solutrean at least in the pictures I have seen of them. If you have other pictures please post them. I will see if I can locate other pictures.
      I have seen other blades that looked like the one I posted that was dredged out of the sea that is supposable Solutrean  but I would never think these were from the Solutrean culture. In my reading the Solutrean culture ended way before Clovis started. This needs to be addressed.
      You commented that Clovis was not found in the Northwest and I know that is not so and posted some of the information I had on it. Not sure what was on your mind when you said it. I would like some clarification on that statement.
      As far as the so called Clovis of mine, I was never sure about what it was, so I asked the experts. The A side has a long fluting scare that overrides and the B side has one short fluting scar with two thinning strikes with the flut overriding. This is a water worn point. I got to go with what Rogers and Jackson said about it. Jackson told me it was made of opalized agatized wood, he took a lot of pictures of it at the Temple show a few years back. Al Kennedy buys and sells Clovis all the time and he no problem with it. I do appreciate the input on it from you or anyone on this artifact.  I posted pictures of the fluts in another post.
      Jack
      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
      Here is a picture of other Solutrean tools 22,000 BP, 17,000 BP found at Crot du Charnier Solutre Pouilly Saone et Loire France, these look similar to the one dredged. The Soulutrean died out around 17,000 B.C so if they were here they would have had to come long before Clovis started and the tools that have been found here before Clovis are crude compared to Clovis.
      Lots of questions to be answered before I jump on that Soiutrean train.

      Jack

      Comment


      • “You are correct that Clovis and Solutrean fluted points look similar by the pictures I posted, but that does not mean Clovis and Solutrean were made by the same people. Technologies change all the time, creative destruction replaces one with the, who is to say the natives hunters from the west going to the east could not have developed it. If you look at all the point types and arrowhead types you can see that the natives were in transition all the time.”
        Good points Jack, I’m with you so far.
        “The blade I showed in my first post had similar scar patterns to Solutrean but the shape is quite different from those made by Solutrean at least in the pictures I have seen of them. If you have other pictures please post them. Shape does matter in most instances but not all.”
        Good point and that sounds all right.
        “I have seen other blades that looked like the one I posted that was dredged out of the sea that is supposable Solutrean (a bunch of B.S) but I would never think these were from the Solutrean culture. In my reading the Solutrean culture ended way before Clovis started.”
        No, actually the dredged up point is very close if not identical to many Solutrean bifaces.
        Drs. Stanford and Bradley have seen more accurately Radiocarbon dates from Solutrean levels at the Solutrean site at coastal Cantabria Spain and they actually place this site firmly in the Clovis time window. In otherwords Clovis really could have come from there and Solutrean. This evidence is discussed in Across Atlantic Ice.
        “You commented that Clovis was not found in the Northwest and I know that is not so and posted some of the information I had on it. Not sure what was on your mind when you said it. I would like some clarification on that statement.”
        As I posted to you earlier, Clovis finds are either rare or non-existent in the Pacific Northwest. Nobody knows why this is true but I speculated it may have been because the Cascade people from North Eastern Asia had claimed that area but that is just speculation by me. More archaeology needs to be done in that area to test for whether the Clovis absence is real or not.     
        “As far as the so called Clovis of mine, I was never sure about what it was, so I asked the experts. The A side has a long fluting scare that overrides and the B side has one short fluting scar with two thinning strikes with the flute overriding. This is a water worn point. I got to go with what Rogers and Jackson said about it. Jackson told me it was made of opalized agatized wood; he took a lot of pictures of it at the Temple show a few years back. Al Kennedy buys and sells Clovis all the time and he no problem with it. I do appreciate the input on it from you or anyone on this artifact. I posted pictures of the flutes in another post.”
        I saw those and knew it was Paleoindian and understand your believe it was Clovis so we will just have agree to disagree on this subject.

        Comment


        • “You are correct that Clovis and Solutrean fluted points look similar by the pictures I posted, but that does not mean Clovis and Solutrean were made by the same people. Technologies change all the time, creative destruction replaces one with the, who is to say the natives hunters from the west going to the east could not have developed it. If you look at all the point types and arrowhead types you can see that the natives were in transition all the time. I think the technology was developed here by the natives as they encountered the large game animals they found here. They needed something more effective than what they started with.”
          You have asked the big question Jack and that could be true except for the Elephant in the room, or the archaeology that is.
          I mean overshot bifacial thinning technology is common to both Clovis and Solutrean. Drs. Stanford and Bradley who have spent years studying Solutrean and Clovis blades and knapping technology say they aren’t just similar. They say both are identical
          If the bifaces of both cultures didn’t have the same knapping and reduction strategy, you would have a good case for a convergent and independent event.  However, since both are identical, it is extremely likely both must be related. I’ll take those odds to Vegas any time.

          Comment


          • Bill wrote:

            “You are correct that Clovis and Solutrean fluted points look similar by the pictures I posted, but that does not mean Clovis and Solutrean were made by the same people. Technologies change all the time, creative destruction replaces one with the, who is to say the natives hunters from the west going to the east could not have developed it. If you look at all the point types and arrowhead types you can see that the natives were in transition all the time.”
            Good points Jack, I’m with you so far.
            “The blade I showed in my first post had similar scar patterns to Solutrean but the shape is quite different from those made by Solutrean at least in the pictures I have seen of them. If you have other pictures please post them. Shape does matter in most instances but not all.”
            Good point and that sounds all right.
            “I have seen other blades that looked like the one I posted that was dredged out of the sea that is supposable Solutrean (a bunch of B.S) but I would never think these were from the Solutrean culture. In my reading the Solutrean culture ended way before Clovis started.”
            No, actually the dredged up point is very close if not identical to many Solutrean bifaces.
            Drs. Stanford and Bradley have seen more accurately Radiocarbon dates from Solutrean levels at the Solutrean site at coastal Cantabria Spain and they actually place this site firmly in the Clovis time window. In otherwords Clovis really could have come from there and Solutrean. This evidence is discussed in Across Atlantic Ice.
            “You commented that Clovis was not found in the Northwest and I know that is not so and posted some of the information I had on it. Not sure what was on your mind when you said it. I would like some clarification on that statement.”
            As I posted to you earlier, Clovis finds are either rare or non-existent in the Pacific Northwest. Nobody knows why this is true but I speculated it may have been because the Cascade people from North Eastern Asia had claimed that area but that is just speculation by me. More archaeology needs to be done in that area to test for whether the Clovis absence is real or not.     
            “As far as the so called Clovis of mine, I was never sure about what it was, so I asked the experts. The A side has a long fluting scare that overrides and the B side has one short fluting scar with two thinning strikes with the flute overriding. This is a water worn point. I got to go with what Rogers and Jackson said about it. Jackson told me it was made of opalized agatized wood; he took a lot of pictures of it at the Temple show a few years back. Al Kennedy buys and sells Clovis all the time and he no problem with it. I do appreciate the input on it from you or anyone on this artifact. I posted pictures of the flutes in another post.”
            I saw those and knew it was Paleoindian and understand your believe it was Clovis so we will just have agree to disagree on this subject.
            __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
            Bill
            The blade that was dredged looks like a lot of blades I have seen that were made that way. They need way more proof than what they are showing.
            The arifacts that have been found here that are before Clovis from what I have seen are crude in comparision. From what I read Solutrean ended 17,000 BP to 15,000 BP depending on source.If they were here before Clovis why the crude tools. 
            Clovis is rare no matter where its found and even harder to locate in an area that has had constant volcanic action over the last 15,000 years, but Clovis is there it is not nonexistent, I showed you the information. You ever here of Mt St.Helens that blew its top a number of years back. It covered a huge area with deep ash, what do you think it would do with a paleo camp just leave it alone.
            Here is map of Solutrean culture in Europe.

            Jack
            Jack

            Comment


            • Bill wrote:

              “You are correct that Clovis and Solutrean fluted points look similar by the pictures I posted, but that does not mean Clovis and Solutrean were made by the same people. Technologies change all the time, creative destruction replaces one with the, who is to say the natives hunters from the west going to the east could not have developed it. If you look at all the point types and arrowhead types you can see that the natives were in transition all the time. I think the technology was developed here by the natives as they encountered the large game animals they found here. They needed something more effective than what they started with.”
              You have asked the big question Jack and that could be true except for the Elephant in the room, or the archaeology that is.
              I mean overshot bifacial thinning technology is common to both Clovis and Solutrean. Drs. Stanford and Bradley who have spent years studying Solutrean and Clovis blades and knapping technology say they aren’t just similar. They say both are identical
              If the bifaces of both cultures didn’t have the same knapping and reduction strategy, you would have a good case for a convergent and independent event.  However, since both are identical, it is extremely likely both must be related. I’ll take those odds to Vegas any time.
              __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
              Bill
              Is one blade the proof? I do not think so, they will have to come up with more than that to change my mind. They need empirical hard data. If the facts change I change with the facts. You can do your dance after more info comes that says it so and I will be dancing with you.
              Jack

              Comment


              • Come on CMD you have stopped making sense. There is an old saying that when one wants to stop talking then he just stops talking. 
                I am not anything except a man who has a passion for Prehistory and Clovis. If I am being disparaged then I don’t care about that. It doesn’t diminish me.
                Clovis from Solutrean is not my theory however if one keeps count of similarities that are shared between both cultures it’s looking pretty good for Stanford and Bradley.
                It is the many similarities that first attracted me to their theory in the first place. If it is wrong, then it is wrong and the world will still orbit the Sun.

                Comment


                • Jack, thanks for posting a great map.
                  I have alreary answered your objections in the posts I just made to you so just read them.

                  Comment


                  • Bill wrote:

                    Jack, thanks for posting a great map.
                    I have alreary answered your objections in the posts I just made to you so just read them.
                      __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___
                    Bill
                    You ever hear of Mt St.Helens that blew its top a number of years back. It covered a huge area with deep ash, what do you think it would do with a paleo camp just leave it alone.
                      I agree to disagree with you today, but we always have tomorrow. 
                      Jack

                    Comment


                    • Hey,
                      Could we collect the informative maps and links this post has accumulated and place them in an easy to reach spot for future references?
                      Sandy

                      Comment


                      • Well since you put it that way Jack, yes it may take more than one blade. My let's just settle down and expect exciting news from the Del Marva peninsula area. Be especially excited about the underwater and land Archaeology that is going to take place there.
                        I have that dance of mine ready and right now it’s looking pretty good for Drs. B and S. too. I believe am going to have some reasons to enjoy dancing.

                        Comment


                        • That's a good idea Dandielyonwine. I'll think about that.

                          Comment


                          • Bill wrote:

                            Come on CMD you have stopped making sense. There is an old saying that when one wants to stop talking then he just stops talking. 
                              Flag on the play, there won't be a third one thrown.
                            Southern Connecticut

                            Comment


                            • Of course it would Jack, I get your point and it is a good one. Active Volcanism during Clovis sure would totally destroy sites in that area.

                              Comment


                              • cgode, when a friend stumbles then it shouldn't be a penalty to help him regain his footing.

                                Comment

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