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  • Ancient Migration-Coming to America

    I posted this link a short time ago on page 9 of the Cinmar thread. I just decided that this is such a concise summary of the current state of American archaeology regarding the peopling of the Americas, the broader search of which the origin of Clovis is but one facet, that I would make it more visible to stand on its' own. A very informative read IMHO.
    http://www.nature.com/news/ancient-m...merica-1.10562
    Rhode Island

  • #2
    Good read Charlie. Good to see some cooperation among the archaeologists and the involvement of geneticists concerning the study of existing sites and new sites and what can be determined from the dna. All of that information being shared, distributed and studied should eventually give us a much better idea of where the origin/s of the peopling of the Americas came from.
    That is of course unless you have irrefutable evidence of Soulutrean first!
    Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan

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    • #3
      Whoa gregszybala, nobody I know has ever said the Solutrean/Clovis folks were the first ones here because they weren't.
      There is no question Paleoindians who were not (or never were) Clovis were the first people to enter North and South America. It is a pretty good bet that those people came by boat from Eastern Asia during the Late Glacial Maximum. 
      They easily traveled around the Northern Asian ice and stopped where it was possible to fish and hunt seals.
      These people traveled down the North and South American coasts, went back to Eastern Asia, and some and even may have liked some places well enough to return and colonize.
      The Solutreans who started the Clovis fluted point culture didn’t reach and colonize the North Eastern United States until much later, around 15,000 years ago.
      At the end of the Pleistocene, around 11,000 years the Cordilleran and Laurentide Glaciers melted enough to allow North Eastern Asians to walk down the Mackenzie River valley and begin to settle in North America.

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      • #4
        Thanks Bill, somehow I knew you would have all the answers.
        Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan

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        • #5
          gregszybala wrote:

          Thanks Bill, somehow I knew you would have all the answers.
             :laugh: I'm sure this will be a thread full of polar opinions, every theory discussion usually has them. I'll read the link tomorrow night at work, I'm almost done with "Across Atlantic ice" so this discussion should prove interesting for me. Thanks for starting the thread Charlie.....I think we should drain the Atlantic seaboard down a couple hundred feet and see what we can find!
          Southern Connecticut

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          • #6
            [QUOTE]cgode wrote:

            Originally posted by gregszybala post=50118
            Thanks Bill, somehow I knew you would have all the answers.
               :laugh: I'm sure this will be a thread full of polar opinions, every theory discussion usually has them. I'll read the link tomorrow night at work, I'm almost done with "Across Atlantic ice" so this discussion should prove interesting for me. Thanks for starting the thread Charlie.....I think we should drain the Atlantic seaboard down a couple hundred feet and see what we can find!
              I'm sure you'll enjoy this article, Chris. But it moves the discussion cross continent to the Pacific, we'll have to drain that as well
            Rhode Island

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            • #7
              [QUOTE]cgode wrote:

              Originally posted by gregszybala post=50118
              Thanks Bill, somehow I knew you would have all the answers.
                 :laugh: I'm sure this will be a thread full of polar opinions, every theory discussion usually has them. I'll read the link tomorrow night at work, I'm almost done with "Across Atlantic ice" so this discussion should prove interesting for me. Thanks for starting the thread Charlie.....I think we should drain the Atlantic seaboard down a couple hundred feet and see what we can find!
                Sorry Charlie, didn't mean to hijack or detract from this thread. I always enjoy the items and references you dig up and the discussions that ensue.
              Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan

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              • #8
                [QUOTE]gregszybala wrote:

                [quote=cgode post=50125]
                Originally posted by gregszybala post=50118
                Thanks Bill, somehow I knew you would have all the answers.
                   :laugh: I'm sure this will be a thread full of polar opinions, every theory discussion usually has them. I'll read the link tomorrow night at work, I'm almost done with "Across Atlantic ice" so this discussion should prove interesting for me. Thanks for starting the thread Charlie.....I think we should drain the Atlantic seaboard down a couple hundred feet and see what we can find!
                  Sorry Charlie, didn't mean to hijack or detract from this thread. I always enjoy the items and references you dig up and the discussions that ensue.
                  No problem, Greg. You neither hijacked nor detracted. I found this article by accident and found it to be an excellent wrap up of the present thinking on the subject. I found it to be very even handed as well. I've always said just release the stranglehold of the "Clovis first" dogma and the intellectual freedom that will result will be the best breath of fresh air in American archaeology in decades. And that's just what's happening and why it's never been a more exciting field of inquiry as it is now.
                Rhode Island

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                • #9
                  Awww gregszybala ha ha, I have some of them but not all.
                  If you really want to know who does have all the answers about Clovis origins, read the new book by Dr. Stanford and Bradford, Across Atlantic Ice.

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                  • #10
                    Bill wrote:

                    Awww gregszybala ha ha, I have some of them but not all.
                    If you really want to know who does have all the answers about Clovis origins, read the new book by Dr. Stanford and Bradford, Across Atlantic Ice.
                      Bill, are you on commission or sumpthin' ?  :whistle:
                    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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                    • #11
                      Bill wrote:

                      Awww gregszybala ha ha, I have some of them but not all.
                      If you really want to know who does have all the answers about Clovis origins, read the new book by Dr. Stanford and Bradford, Across Atlantic Ice.
                        I'm a dim-wit...I admit it.  Can't even identify an artifact.  But seriously...somebody has all the answers???  Not likely!

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                      • #12
                        Bill wrote:

                        Awww gregszybala ha ha, I have some of them but not all.
                        If you really want to know who does have all the answers about Clovis origins, read the new book by Dr. Stanford and Bradford, Across Atlantic Ice.
                          We are finally leaving an era dominated by a dogma-Clovis was first and that's that. Now that we have broken free of the Clovis-first straightjacket, I for one am not in favor of adopting another dogma-that Stanford and Bradley have ALL the answers and that's that. I say down with dogmas!!!! I like the new freedom of thought, thank you very much!!
                        Rhode Island

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                        • #13
                          [QUOTE]roustabout149 wrote:

                          Originally posted by Bill post=50152
                          Awww gregszybala ha ha, I have some of them but not all.
                          If you really want to know who does have all the answers about Clovis origins, read the new book by Dr. Stanford and Bradford, Across Atlantic Ice.
                            I'm a dim-wit...I admit it.  Can't even identify an artifact.  But seriously...somebody has all the answers???  Not likely!
                            Permit me to strongly disagree on one point, Pam. You are NOT a dim-wit.
                          Rhode Island

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                          • #14
                            Aww shucks Pain you just ain't one of us down East Clovisers. When we find a Clovis around here it looks like a Clovis. As for dogmas I just have to bark, arf arf!
                            Across Atlantic Ice affirms everything I have read about Clovis, Preclovis, and the Asian upper Paleolithic. The only place on earth that has the makings of Clovis along with the specialized tool types this culture made and used is the European Solutrean.
                            This is why I believe Drs. Stanford and Bradley have it right and have nailed down exactly where Clovis came from. Early in their careers they looked to Asia, North Eastern Asia, and Alaska for Clovis origins and came up empty.
                            When they began looking at European Solutrean assemblages and comparing them to Clovis assemblages they realized they had found a match. The Solutrean assemblage in Cantabria Spain is the closest to North American Clovis than anywhere else in the world.
                            They could take their argument for Clovis origins in Across Atlantic Ice to a jury in a court room and win.

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                            • #15
                              I think an overall message, eloquently delivered in the above article, is that the state of American archaeology regarding the peopling of the Americas, including but not restricted to the origins of Clovis, is one of flux. It is difficult to escape the grip of a paradigm that permits no dissent. The possibility of pre-Clovis has been there awhile. Meadowcroft was a thorn in the side of the Clovis-first paradigm by the late 70's. But much more time would be needed before that paradigm lost its' grip entirely. Now is not the time to codify a new paradigm. We are in terra igcognita, and indeed we always have been. we now know Clovis was not first. And we do not know with certainty the origins of Clovis. We do not know with certainty when mankind first arrived in the Western hemisphere. We do not know with certainty how many routes may have been used by migrants to this hemisphere. We are in a state of flux, a shifting landscape as we emerge from this older paradigm where the answer to the question who were the first Americans seemed certain(to most). Clovis-first stifled the freedom to think outside the box created by that belief. To suggest that there is now a new box, Clovis came from Solutrean, and people should not think outside that box, is to substitute one dogma for another dogma. I will not be so restricted in my thinking. Stanford and Bradley do not have a stranglehold on the truth. Some may be comfortable adopting a new dogma when we've barely begun to scratch the surface in understanding early America. Certainly the Clovis-firsters were quite comfortable in their day. I am not comfortable adopting a new dogma at this stage. I positively revel in the freedom of thinking allowed when the old crumbles and the new is not yet in sharp focus. I do not worship at the altar of Stanford and Bradley.
                              They have a theory. Time will tell what the true merits, or lack thereof, exist in that theory. I will not have that theory shoved down my throat by anyone. I have alot of education and a highly discriminating mind, if I do say so myself, and I will be my own judge. We are free from an old dogma and should appreciate that fact.
                              Rhode Island

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