Clovis Like Points Found In Venezuela.

[greywolf22]

Here is another case of Clovis like points being found in another parts of the world. Is it Clovis or just something very similar?
From the report "Most interestingly, Clovis-like projectile points, with and without fluting and all made from chert, have been found in western Venezuela in 1980-81 by Miklos Szabadics, an amateur/collector, at El Cayude site in the Peninsula of Paraguaná."
Link to more information:
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/jo...ima-text3.html

Jackm

[Bill]

That's a great post Jack, and those are South American Paleoindian points known as El Jobo that are al least 11,000 years old. The El Jobo is a thick body lanceolate that looks like a little like a thick Agate Basin type out west.
El Jobos are usually thick in cross section and were percussion and pressure flaked. Archeologist Tony Baker believed Clovis evolved from thick bodied points like El Jobo.
He has an interesting theory and believes fluting gradually evolved from thicker points as the bases were repaired. During repair, the bases were at first unintentionally thinned. However hunters noticed that thinned bases provided a more secure haft which stabilized the point so that it performed better. They soon began intentionally thinning their projectile point bases.
One of the hunters accidently or deliberately removed longer thinning flakes from the base of his point and noticed it made the projectile point haft even more securely. This made the point perform better than just thinning the bases had. 
Tony Baker believes Clovis developed in this way.
It is a very good theory and it explains Clovis origins pretty neatly and logically except for one thing. Thick points do not feature overshot bifacial thinning and that’s why they are thick. Clovis points, especially Eastern Clovis points always seem to have been bifacially thinned by the overshot method.
This is why I don’t believe Clovis evolved from thick performs.

[greywolf22]

Bill wrote:

That's a great post Jack, and those are South American Paleoindian points known as El Jobo that are al least 11,000 years old. The El Jobo is a thick body lanceolate that looks like a little like a thick Agate Basin type out west.
El Jobos are usually thick in cross section and were percussion and pressure flaked. Archeologist Tony Baker believed Clovis evolved from thick bodied points like El Jobo.
He has an interesting theory and believes fluting gradually evolved from thicker points as the bases were repaired. During repair, the bases were at first unintentionally thinned. However hunters noticed that thinned bases provided a more secure haft which stabilized the point so that it performed better. They soon began intentionally thinning their projectile point bases.
One of the hunters accidently or deliberately removed longer thinning flakes from the base of his point and noticed it made the projectile point haft even more securely. This made the point perform better than just thinning the bases had. 
Tony Baker believes Clovis developed in this way.
It is a very good theory and it explains Clovis origins pretty neatly and logically except for one thing. Thick points do not feature overshot bifacial thinning and that’s why they are thick. Clovis points, especially Eastern Clovis points always seem to have been bifacially thinned by the overshot method.
This is why I don’t believe Clovis evolved from thick performs.

  __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Bill
Very good info. Goes to show form fits function, and the better the form as in fluting the better it works.
Thanks
Jack

[mjbrads]

Great article and no surprise here.  Look how old the material at Monte Verde is and that is down at the base of South America.  There is so much we don't know.  That is what keeps us all coming back.

[greywolf22]

Mj
That is do.
Jack

[ajbhawkowl]

great read thanks Jack

[clovisoid]

Sorry for the thread resurection, but for what it's worth most of those relics are in my collection.
Here are better pictures of the first and third bases in the picture with the broken fluted points.


My father worked in the automotive industry, and they sent us to Venezuela (as well as Brazil, Egypt and Pakistan) when I was a kid.  We collected relics in Indiana, and kept it up in where we could.

[chase]

That is very cool!!! Thanks!  I always like those fluted points.

[rmartin]

Now how neat is that? Thanks for the "Resurrection".

[Bone2stone]

rmartin wrote:

Now how neat is that? Thanks for the "Resurrection".

  So true so true.
Jess B.

[JoshinMO]

They "look like" Clovis points. Nice to see one closeup, Thanks.

[G10+]

thank u very much for the show Joshua and for picking that thread up again ,,, great pieces

[Bill]

I must write a note of caution. There is at least one "reported" South American Clovis site that has been so badly looted that it is no longer of value to the scientific community.
When site looting occurs, especially when a collector brags about it the possibility always exists that that site was salted.
Therefore such a controversial site will remain forever tainted and ruined in the Archaeological community. Such a site is of no scientific value and therefore is useless in advancing any cultural knowledge that might have been gained under the proper stewardship.
Only a professional archaeologist has the knowledge to properly excavate, evaluate, and scientifically write about a site. Once an avationalist has found an important site he turns it over the professionals.

[CMD]

Thanks for the photos, Joshua, and welcome to the forum

[clovisoid]

Bill,
Just help me understand, are you calling me a looter or saying I'm a fraud by salting the cayude site?
Joshua
 

Bill wrote:

I must write a note of caution. There is at least one "reported" South American Clovis site that has been so badly looted that it is no longer of value to the scientific community.
When site looting occurs, especially when a collector brags about it the possibility always exists that that site was salted.
Therefore such a controversial site will remain forever tainted and ruined in the Archaeological community. Such a site is of no scientific value and therefore is useless in advancing any cultural knowledge that might have been gained under the proper stewardship.
Only a professional archaeologist has the knowledge to properly excavate, evaluate, and scientifically write about a site. Once an avationalist has found an important site he turns it over the professionals.