Evidence of Viking Outpost Found in Canada

[rakovsky]

There is a real phenomenon of very cool and pretty authentic centuries-old petroglyphs in the Northeast US, but how many of them are Amerindian vs.Viking vs.colonial might be something beyond our current scientific ability to using precise methods for dating.

[rakovsky]

I understand. I am open minded on this kind of topic. Since the Greenlanders left runes in Greenland and then stayed in L'anse aux Meadows for ~10 to 15 years, and explored the eastern seaboard, it's normal to think that they could have left runes in some other places in Eastern Canada / the Northeast USA.

[rakovsky]

It's OK. For the Midwest, the Mississippian Culture, with spots like Cahokia, seem the most advanced spot for the Ancient to Medieval period.

[rakovsky]

Besides the Viking site in L'anse aux Meadows, we have as evidence of Viking settlements/camps the 5 settlements/camps south of Labrador's Peninsula listed in the two Sagas that focus on Vinland, ie. the camps at Leifsbudir, Kjalarnes, Straumsfjord, Hop, and a cape between the latter two areas. The Sagas specify that these 5 spots were south of Markland, likely the Labrador Peninsula.

[rakovsky]

The Vikings stayed at L'anse aux Meadows and archaeologists found the site there, guessing that it lasted 10 years. The Sagas give a total of 5 settlements/camps south of Labrador, particularly:
-Kjalarnes (Keel Point, likely on the Atlantic coast)
-Straumsfjord (Current Ford)
-Hop (Tidal Pool Estuary)
- A cape between Straumsfjord and Hop
- Leifsbudir (Leif's camp on a salmon lake, apparently in the St. Lawrence Gulf's basin)

[rakovsky]

A runestone in a place like RI seems more feasible than an authentic one being in Oklahoma or Minnesota.

[rakovsky]

Thanks for sharing. Purported discoveries of Viking artifacts seem much more reasonable in the NY State area and Lake Ontario than at points in the US farther west, considering the Vikings in the Sagas proceeded from Greenland and Iceland to places like Newfoundland. The only NY State artifact case was one by Lake Ontario "found" in 1929. It was a well rusted iron spear point. I don't have much opinion on it, but no other artifacts were found by it, so it's less reliable for me as a result.

[rakovsky]

I think that the Viking yarn predates Columbus enough for it to be significant. The VIkings were at Helluland (Baffin Island?) starting around 1000 AD, whereas Columbus got to the Americas in 1492, within a decade of the modern era.

[rakovsky]

One interesting possibility reminiscient of the Solutrean theory is the possible relationship between the megaliths of New England and the megaliths of the British Isles and France across the Atlantic from each other. Whereas England has the famous Stonehenge, Stonehenge USA is a site near Salem, N.H. However, unlike in the British Isles megalithic sites, we don't find European-type Bronze Age style artifacts that would prove a connection between the two regions (New England megaliths and West European ones). So it seems more likely that these megaliths got built independently of each other, but it isn't clear.

[rakovsky]

The Helluland Archaeology Project gives this helpful overview map of Norse-style archaeological finds on Baffin Island:



SOURCE: "Helluland Archaeology Project,"

https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/archeo/helluland/str0301e.html

The Greenlanders' Saga and Saga of Eric the Red narrate a total of three voyages by the Vikings to Helluland within maybe a dozen years. However, the Vikings must have been traveling in the region for a longer period, because in one European record, the Vikings had a ship on an expedition for gathering timber in Markland/Labrador get blown eastward to Iceland in the 14th century.

There is alittle curious issue in the Sagas' narrative about Helluland, because in the Greenlanders' Saga, it says that when the Vikings visited the land on their way to Greenland from Markland, they "saw" that Helluland was an island. In reality, it seems that the Vikings might only have guessed/estimated that Baffin Island was an island, because it's a huge landmass and they didn't circumnavigate it on that particular first trip to it. One alternative is that Helluland is not actually Baffin Island, but some much smaller island. Yet on a map, there isn't an easy obvious alternative for Helluland besides Baffin Island.

The issue of where south of Labrador the Vikings camped and visited is pretty interesting for me, in part because the Vikings are a fun theme. The interaction between the Vikings and the Amerindian cultures like the Dorset people, the Thule, the Micmacs, Beothuks, and maybe Algonquins make the topic more interesting.

Where I first get stuck trying to locate territories south of Markland/Labrador is when it comes to identifying the island of Bjarney southeast of Markland/Labrador. It seems like it most likely would be Belle Isle or Newfoundland, and that Anticosti Island and the small islands on the south shore of Labrador/Quebec are much weaker candidates for Bjarney.

The Island of Bjarney is in Eric the Red's Saga. Here is the text line by line in both versions of the story:

Skalhotsbok version Then they sailed on a northerly {ie. Southward} wind for two days and then there was a land [ie. Markland / Labrador?] before them on which there was a great forest and many animals.	Hauksbok version From there they sailed for two days and the wind shifted from south to southeast and they found a wooded land with many animals on it.
An island lay off the land to the southeast and there they found a bear and called [the place] Bjarney (‘Bear Island’). But the land they called Markland (‘Forest Land’) where the forest is.	An island lay offshore to the southeast. There they killed a bear and from this called the place Bjarney and the land Markland.
When two days had passed they sighted land and they sailed along the coast. There was a promontory [They later named this promontory "Kjalarnes"]. When they got there they tacked along the coast, keeping the land to starboard.	From there they sailed south along the coast for a long time and came to a promontory. The land lay to starboard.

Here is a map of the eastern Labrador Peninsula to show you what I'm talking about. Belle Isle is the small island south of the word "Fox" on the middle east half of the map:

(click to enlarge the map)

Newfoundland seems like a good candidate for Bjarney because in the Greenlanders' Saga, the explorer Bjarni sailed from Iceland to a new land, apparently Newfoundland, and then sailed two days west to a Second land, Markland (Labrador). So the island of Bjarney in Eric the Red's Saga might be named indirectly with the explorer Bjarni in mind.

But Belle Isle also seems like a good candidate for Bjarney. This is because whereas Belle Isle and Newfoundland have bears, Newfoundland also had Beothuk Indians, yet the short story about the naming of Bjarney doesn't mention finding Indians, just bears. The Vikings would have ended up meeting the Vikings of Newfoundland, since the Vikings' L'anse aux Meadows colony was in Newfoundland, and they also got jasper from Fortune Harbor where the Beothuks lived in eastern Newfoundland, based on the discovery of Fortune Harbor jasper at the L'anse aux Meadows site.

H. Hermannsson writes in "The Wineland Voyages": "An island lay southeast from it , and upon that they found a bear; hence they called it Bear Island. This could well be the northern point of Newfoundland, which they almost inevitably would have taken for an island if they went through the strait."

As an editor, G. Siggurdsson writes in The Vinland Sagas (2019, Footnote 22 for Eric the Red's Saga): Bjarney (Bear Island)....: The island now called Belle Isle is a well-known landmark for seafarers, south-east from the coast of the forested Labrador. It is reasonable to assume that the story is now passing Labrador and pointing out the main landmark off the shore, Bjarney.

Hans Steenby writes in the book "Norsemen's Route from Greenland to Wineland" about the description of Bjarney being on the southeast side of Markland:
"All this agrees with the conditions near the Strait of Belle Isle, where one has the turn of the coast, and where Newfoundland lies as an island to the south-east."

Mrs. Ingstad in a book about Vinland noted that in her time at L'anse aux Meadows, a polar bear was hunted on Belle Isle, and her suggestion was that Bjarney referred to Belle Isle.

I have trouble finding much more on the topic in academic writings.

[rakovsky]

Yes, a Viking presence is pretty well established for the site at L'Anse Aux Meadows in Newfoundland -and- Labrador, Canada which seems to tie in with ancient Viking sagas of voyages to "Vin-Land".
But, apart from isolated pieces of evidence which are not universally accepted, no firm evidence for Viking presence beyond that, or which extends into what is now North America itself. Viking presence as far south as Maine remains a possibility (but only a possibility).

I find that P. Sutherland's work is convincing in showing a Norse presence in Baffin Island in the Viking period.

In the two Viking Sagas on Vinland, the Vikings describe themselves as traveling down the Atlantic coast of North America to a place where it didn't snow in the winter that they arrived there. In the Saga of Eric the Red, they name this warm land "Hop", meaning Tidal Estuary Pool. They camp by a lake that they can only get to at high tide, and they leave after having conflict with the Amerindians.

I think that it would be helpful if more archaeologists and researchers laid out the description of Vinland's locations in the Sagas and drew a chart of how Vinland's locations would look if the geography in the Sagas was taken literally. I tried to do so myselfand made a post here with my own hand-drawn maps:

https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/general-discussion-gc5/archaeology-news-reports-discussion-gc43/699253-where-exactly-would-the-locations-for-vinland-s-regions-be-according-to-the-viking-sagas

Here is my hand-drawn map of how the Greenlanders' Saga might make Vinland's coordinates look.

[rakovsky]

The article in the OP is taken down there, but it can still be found at this location:

http://www.archeolog-home.com/pages/content/baffin-island-nanook-canada-building-established-by-the-norse-vikings-around-1300-or-possibly-earlier.html

[rmartin]

Roger, I wish you hadn't brought up clay tablets LOL.

[painshill]

riverbottomkid wrote:

I just want to make it clear. I did not say I believed it nor did I say I didn't. Growing up here you hear lots of lore mostly on native american's and bandits. I found a topic and read the post, found it interesting, and shared a "topic of conversation" I heard round the domino table so many times by my 90 year old grandfather and his windy friends. I enjoy the stories and round table discussions the same as the next but don't make me feel stupid because I post something you don't agree with or like. If I took it wrong I apologize ahead of time.

  Hi Bobbie
My sincere apologies if that came over as “trying to make you feel stupid”.  :blush: That wasn’t at all my intention, and I wasn't assuming anything about your take on the story. It’s just that when links like that get posted without any counter-comment there are folks who read what’s there and take the information as factual or proven. That’s fine. I don’t have any issues with people making up their own minds about something – as long as they have at least some exposure to the pro’s and con’s of particular theories. But, unfortunately, it often results in a flurry of posts from people with rather extreme views of what established research actually tells us, who think they’ve found related artefacts of huge archaeological importance.
If you use the search facility on the forum, you’ll see that we have had several “Viking flurries”. We’ve had triangular stones, stones with triangular holes, carved runestones, clay tablets, swords… none of them Viking… but the posters are frequently aggressively insistent, based on some information from links like the one you posted. The only things we haven’t had yet are Viking maps or horned helmets. But I’m not holding my breath. :whistle:
Our collective aim is to make this forum a professional and authoritative reference source for anyone with an interest in artefacts. That doesn’t in any way exclude alternative opinions, debate or argument. But we do try to firmly refute artefacts (not just Viking ones) which are clearly not what they are claimed to be in the interests of accuracy for people trawling the forum for helpful information.
Thanks for the kind words you posted on my profile (I responded there). I hope this doesn’t mean you're cancelling that dinner date. I've ordered the flowers and everything. I was looking forward to it. I’ll buy.
Best wishes
Roger

[CMD]

riverbottomkid wrote:

I just want to make it clear. I did not say I believed it nor did I say I didn't. Growing up here you hear lots of lore mostly on native american's and bandits. I found a topic and read the post, found it interesting, and shared a "topic of conversation" I heard round the domino table so many times by my 90 year old grandfather and his windy friends. I enjoy the stories and round table discussions the same as the next but don't make me feel stupid because I post something you don't agree with or like. If I took it wrong I apologize ahead of time.

  Yeah, you did take it wrong. Roger(painshill) would be the last person in the world to make anyone on the forum feel stupid.  The subject has come up before on this forum(the link Roger posted to my thread is but one instance), as well as other forums. He's made it clear that he finds the evidence for lack of authenticity where NA runestones are concerned more compelling. I myself just don't know. I haven't personally written off any of them that come to mind, but I'm more aware of some of the problems with them thanks to arguments that Roger has presented here. So don't take things the wrong way, if I lived in Ok, I'd be hearing and telling stories about it too, just like the Newport Tower, here in Newport, RI, has been associated in lore and book with the Norse, whether it was built by them or not. And talked about all my life