Post Clovis Fluted Point Types?

[kreative]

Posted by [GarScale]:

Clovisoid, there is no one thing in your dissertation that I disagree with. The title of the thread references post Clovis and I think you absolutely nailed it. Fluting might have been almost ritualistic in some cases. Post Clovis, the fluting we see on Dalton, San P, Early triangular etc is the same in function even if done much differently. Clearly,(to me anyway) fluting tec spread quickly through an existing people.
Great post.

[JoshinMO]

Its when later than Paleo points with thinning are called fluted by Some and Someone should step in and correct The Individuals, that gets old is all. OK, Some "Late Paleo" or Transitional and or early Archaic have what appears to be similar to Clovis Fluting. I like Points later than true Paleo that have thinning or flutes, People can call it what They want (free speach) I/We just try to Teach, if People want to learn, Great.

[turkeytail]

Holcombe is one late paleo that was normally fluted.

[chase]

Clovisoid wrote:

Chase, awesome idea for a thread. It would be neat to see a cleaned up one with examples. One of the most popular pages on Tony Baker's site (ele.net) was the single page reference with C-14 days from different sites, it was accessed from all around the world by both amateurs and professionals, linked to in hundreds of sites, etc. These types of one stop references are very powerful ways of sharing info.

Thanks Joshua, When I first joined this forum there were members on here that talked, debated, thorized and opened up discussions that made you think, questioned, and formulate new thought processes. This forum is great to display, show off finds and ask what did I find. But it has on this forum has lacked in a while the thought provoking ideas, accepted facts and the debates that lead to a better understanding of this hobby.
WOW!!! To all that have responded to this thread. Charlie, Joshua, Great job!!! both of you, just fantastic!
A great question has spurned from this topic, Basil Thinning VS. Fluting what is the differences. Why are they considered separate. Both are intentional, both serve the same purpose. I guess the question for me would be, was the point made with the intent of fluting, or was the point fluted for the intent of thinning? Is the point type design one that is as a whole normally not fluted, and if lateral  thinning was not obtained, to where basil thinning was the last option. Just some thoughts.

[kreative]

Posted by [GarScale]:

These points were mixed with Golondrina, Angostura, and Scotts Bluff
They have much higher quality flaking than most Ets as well as much stronger fluting. You might remember that I had a hard time accepting that they were ETs.

clovisoid wrote:

GarScale,
Some of your Early Triangles look really out of place with the Middle Archaic pieces from Central Texas.  Are you digging them up at an earlier layer?  There is no doubting the age of the CenTex pieces, lots of dates and multiple sites, but a lot of collectors still call all of them Paleo.  Yours actually look kind of paleo-ish to me (or early Archaic.)
You've mentioned it before, but some of those tips have Cody like flaking.  One of the ideas that Tony Baker liked was that that fluting developed as strategy to rebase broken thick bodied points.  Some of your pieces look like that, but with Sloth Slayer or Cody points instead of Hasketts, Mesa and Jobo.
Here is the link, you need power point to see it and see the animation.
PowerPoint presentation on rebasing pieces with flutes

[kreative]

JoshinMO wrote:

Its when later than Paleo points with thinning are called fluted by Some and Someone should step in and correct The Individuals, that gets old is all. OK, Some "Late Paleo" or Transitional and or early Archaic have what appears to be similar to Clovis Fluting. I like Points later than true Paleo that have thinning or flutes, People can call it what They want (free speach) I/We just try to Teach, if People want to learn, Great.

Posted by [GarScale]:

I am easy. Ill take lessons from anyone that offers em. I do think a study of fluted points has to include these examples though if you want to understand the morph.

[JoshinMO]

OK, I missed The Point. :blush:  :laugh: I see, its The whole basis of The Topic here, so Sorry Chase,Garscale etc. At one time all these types of Points did disappear, guess it was Archaic times. I do think Clovis evolved and didnt completely die off. It seems to me They (clovis people) couldn't have all Died from a catastrophic event. Lots of good information on this topic that others have shared, Thanks.

[kreative]

JoshinMO wrote:

OK, I missed The Point. :blush:  :laugh: I see, its The whole basis of The Topic here, so Sorry Chase,Garscale etc. At one time all these types of Points did disappear, guess it was Archaic times. I do think Clovis evolved and didnt completely die off. It seems to me They (clovis people) couldn't have all Died from a catastrophic event. Lots of good information on this topic that others have shared, Thanks.

Posted by [GarScale]:

*I agree that most Clovis folks may have died from a catastrophic event. my site, there is a layer just above Clovis that sure looks uninhabitable. However, this thread is titled post Clovis and sure is thought provoking. Clearly(to me) Clovis flutes directly effected those later points. There were people making stemmed points before Clovis.
By the way, Overstreet describes ET as fluted.At least it did in the only edition I have handy.

[JoshinMO]

[QUOTE]GarScale wrote:

OK, I missed The Point. :blush:  :laugh: I see, its The whole basis of The Topic here, so Sorry Chase,Garscale etc. At one time all these types of Points did disappear, guess it was Archaic times. I do think Clovis evolved and didnt completely die off. It seems to me They (clovis people) couldn't have all Died from a catastrophic event. Lots of good information on this topic that others have shared, Thanks.

  *I agree that most Clovis folks may have died from a catastrophic event. In  my site, there is a layer just above Clovis that sure looks uninhabitable. However, this thread is titled post Clovis and sure is thought provoking. Clearly(to me) Clovis flutes directly effected those later points. There were people making stemmed points before Clovis.
By the way, Overstreet describes ET as fluted.At least it did in the only edition I have handy.
Definitely, Thanks!

[turkeytail]

Some catastrophic event happened "Around" 10,000 years ago...Astroid? definitely a huge climate change that killed off the megafauna. I assume many of the Clovis people went with them. With no huge animals to take down the ones left may have downsized in projectile point size and excluded the flute with basal thinning. Less likely to break in manufacture too....It evolved.

[amateur]

There is an article by Dr. Gramly on laser dating Cumberland accessible via google ; I've got it saved as a document but my filing system is so chaotic I can't lay my finger on the url at the moment.

These are two excellent overviews of what's going on with that :

http://www.charlesmoorearchaeology.com/2011/11/30/the-cumberland-phase/

http://www.charlesmoorearchaeology.com/2012/06/21/colbert-county-alabama-dig/