Buying Artifacts

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Hello,

Recently saw this point that a friend was watching on Ebay. It eventually sold for $300. Assuming the artifact is legitimate, what warrants the price tag? Is it just rare to see ground points for sale? Would any of the seasoned collectors here pay $300 for a point like this? I don't have a picture of it, but there was also a Taunton River Bifurcate from the same seller that I believe went for quite a bit. When is it worth it? When is the price too high?

[Kyflintguy]

Lots of things increase value, rarity, demand, material, grade, attached provenance ( famous collector, well documented site etc, etc). Slate points from the Northeast are hot items at auctions , I've noticed the same trend. Would I pay 300 $ for it? No, its not my area of collecting interest. A bidder from were the point was found may though. Its worth it if that's the piece you want to have in your collection and you have the means to afford it. Chances are if you win an item like this at auction there's generally people who would pay close or same as you paid for it. So you theoretically could get your money back. The price is to high when you'll never be able to re coup the money invested into an artifact or your spending above your means. Hope that helps answer your questions.

[pkfrey]

I saw that point, and I placed a bid on it that I thought was fair. I think $100,but I got so outbid I stopped. Ground slate points have considerable value due to their rarity, and the seller described this point as coming from the famous W. Beauchamp collection. But there wouldn't be any proof of that. The seller said there's one SIMILAR to it in Beauchamps book. And it doesn't have an unusual notched base, a lot of slate artifacts have notched bases. The seller really talked this point up in the description, ex. museum, Beauchamp, etc.,and someone probably thought the point was famous or something. Value on these is dependent on condition, size, and provenance. This point is REALISTICALLY worth between $75 -$125. Here's two from N.Y. with the same type notched base. Who knows why people pay so much for a particular artifact. I'd like to hear other opinions.

[pkfrey]

P.S. Also, when people ( collectors ) pay a significantly higher price than an artifact is REALISTICALLY worth, it upsets the balance of fair market values, and worth. Now, because someone paid $300 for a slate point, collectors will think EVERY similar slate point is worth at least that much. That's simply not true. In the artifact market, there's something to always keep in mind. " Auction Values " DO NOT dictate fair, current market values. At auctions, ebay, estate, etc., 99% of the time, artifacts will sell for 30 to 40% more than they are worth privately. People get into a competitive bidding war with under bidders, and most of the time, it no longer has anything to do with the artifact. It's all about WINNING, not acquiring the artifact. The small slate point in this frame is 5.5 cm, about the same as the one on ebay. but it's not worth $300.

[Hoss]

It is because of a desire to win! Ego in my opinion. I once bought a used cub scout uniform for two dollars at a garage sale. I cut the patches off of it and sold them separately. For just the one Council shoulder patch I was paid 30 dollars. I asked the buy why he had bid so much? The guy said he was "sick and tired of loosing" and he wanted that patch particularly bad. He had belonged to that council as a boy,\. It had merged with another council and the name became defunct as the merging changed to the Connecticut Yankee Council. So this patch one would assume was more rare than others. However the base of people looking for one was not on a national level. The collectors only pretty much go after active councils and will buy ten of their own council and trade for others at camporee and Jamborees Getting five dollars for one of these patches is about the average. I laughed when the guy said "yeah I over paid it was my ego I have since found an entire unifrom for half the price I paid for this one patch." Sorry for the long story but in my honest opinion it boils down to deep pockets and ego.

[Kyflintguy]

Interesting perspective Paul. You might find this interesting or may disagree completely but I find I get way better deals buying from Auctions than I do purchasing from dealers at what are considered " fair market values". Maybe its just that the majority of on line dealers dont really rely on selling artifacts as a main source of income. Feel free to disagree, but in my opinion auction prices come closer to "fair market value" than set "buy it now" prices. How many dealer sites can you go to and see the same artifacts there that were there 6 months ago. Shoot I see pieces on dealer sites that have set idle for years. I'm not emplying that they all charge to much , I know several that will make you a fair deal to actually sell artifacts and most will negotiate somewhat. But I also see others that have huge inventories that they let sweat at redicuously high prices hoping that one guy with deep pockets walks by and bites. In my opinion bid wars are the exception not a guarantee in auctions. On eBay the auctions run under a time format, the last person to bid the highest wins and often the high bid has been placed well before the auction ends. They sell for what people are willing to pay. There is no Kelly blue book for artifacts. And your opinion of what is or isnt fair market value is based on what you've sold or saw sold. Unless I'm unaware of all of these places to privately purchase artifacts and I sure I am, my guess is that more artifacts are sold at auction than anywhere else, so my question is, how could auction prices not effect fair market value when essentially the market is auctions?
Maybe I'm all wrong, and I'm not trying to argue at all, I value your opinion on these matters and when you say this thing sold for more than its worth, I believe you. I know my opinion is that of mostly just a buyer. But I also know for a fact that I could not afford many of the artifacts I own unless I bought them at auction. I do bargain bid, I lose more than I win but I only bid to aquire an artifact, not to win a bid war. And another piece of evidence I see t that auctions and in particular eBay auctions are cheaper than dealer prices is that alot of dealers use eBay to buy inventory. Just my observation s though.

[pkfrey]

Well, here's a perfect example. I recently went to a Conestoga Auction that was offering local 1600s Susquehannock trade beads. An average strand of 30 inch beads were selling for between $400 - $600. I have the same exact type beads from the same sites, with the same type beads, offered at $225 a strand, and they aren't selling! BUT, if I consign them to the auction, I could get twice what I'm offering them for. I am, however, offering them at a price that would be fair to any collector in any private market. When you see stores with dealers " asking " high prices, you don't know what many of them are settling for. Dealers are not getting the high prices being asked. Take the ground slate point offered and sold on ebay for $300, I sold well over a dozen of the the same type this year for between $75 - $100, which is the " fair " market value for such points. Now there are exceptions, but for the most part, take the artifacts that you bought at any auction, to an artifact show, and you won't sell 5% of the artifacts for what you paid at auction. I've been in the market for 35 years, and yes there are always exceptions, but normally, people will pay more at auction that what the item is worth privately. What your seeing when something on ebay goes fairly cheap, is one or maybe just a few of the exceptions. I'm talking what normally happens, but it's not 100%. It's simply a very small percentage of auction sales that are deals and less than actual value. It's like Hoss said, ego goes along way at an auction. Outbidding your opponent makes a person feel like a winner, and at that point, it has nothing to do with what's being purchased. And at that point, fair value goes out the window. The buyer will never resell and get back what he paid. And if you watch ebay regularly, the highest bid happens in the last 5 minutes, on most pieces. That's because the person who really wants the item doesn't sit there every day placing bids. They wait until the auction is almost over, and then place a ridiculous high bid, full well knowing there isn't enough time left for someone to outbid them.
OK, so to answer your question, with a question, do you think that slate point that sold at an ebay auction, now dictates that every slate point similar in size and condition is now worth $300? Did that now set a standard market price? If it did, then the one in the photo I posted can be yours, for $300!
Here's the best example I can think of. The auction that was held a year or so ago, people were paying $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 and up, for a Townsend birdstone, and related Townsend artifacts. Those people weren't buying a birdstone, they were buying the Townsend name. Those people won't get 1/4 of what they paid at an artifact show or any private market venue, and those prices do not mean every pop eye birdstone in existence is worth $200,000!

[Kyflintguy]

I hear you Paul, my perspective is generally just of my area of interest. I don't keep my finger on the pulse of changing market values for a wide variety of artifacts. I do often watch auctions and I agree that some stuff sells for prices that are unexplainable and will never be matched.
As for your question, your right, that one instance does not dictate the price of other comparable size and condition slate points.
But lets say this same scenario repeats itself with yet more slate pieces bringing above what is thought to be current market value at auction, would one not have to consider putting there own slate artifacts up for auction if selling was there intention??
I don't know all there is to know about all of that. I think some dealers are all business and some are half hearted collectors who don't mind to pass on a bargain and enjoy handling nice pieces. You sound like one of those guys Paul, we could probably be real buddies if you sold more Ky, Tn stuff. Lol Thanks for your input!

[pkfrey]

Mornin Josh, Your correct in your last comments. I don't sell for huge profits, it's not always about the money. I enjoy seeing another collector acquire something they appreciate to add to their collection. My satisfaction comes from their enjoyment, not from their wallets. I'm not doing this to promote my store, but it's there anyway, check my link, I have some nice Tn./Ky artifacts at far less than most other people are asking. My prices are mostly determined by, How much would I be willing to spend if I wanted to buy the artifact that I'm offering. But your also correct in the fact that if ten more slate points of similar size and condition, all sold for around $300, then yes, that would set a more standard value. And I thought we already were friends, you don't have to buy anything for me to like you!!!

[Kyflintguy]

Lol i was just messing with you Paul, I consider everyone on this site my friend! I just meant you'd have to deal with my annoying emails all the time too haha!

[CMD]

In my experience, and I am an example of this very point, collectors will pay a premium to get pieces found local to them. Would I pay over value for a ground slate point found in my home state or home town? Absolutely I would. If I want it badly enough because it is a local piece, I will overpay to a degree. Yes, ego is a factor in an auction. If you don't set a price, above which you will never venture, one can indeed get caught up in a bidding war. But, in my own universe, when I started collecting with my wallet, rather then my eyes, the fact that a piece was local always increased my interest, if it was otherwise a nice piece. Never, ever overlook the allure of local pieces to a collector. I bought a ground slate point found in the vicinity of Providence on an eBay auction. I do not believe I overpaid at all, actually. Would I have paid more? You bet I would. My maximum bid reflected that fact. It's my money. If I want to overspend to a degree because I want to bring a piece "home", it's my choice, and I really don't care how the market reacts.

[skrewkase]

No I would rather take $300 dollars and put it in the gas tank and go find a arrowhead better than that.if I didnt find It I wouldnt want it anyways.

[CMD]

I just checked out the auction that sold the ground slate point. I notice the winning bid was placed with 2 seconds remaining. It's likely the winning bidder used a sniping service. I use esnipe myself. I avoid bidding wars altogether. I decide my max bid and set the snipe to place a bid with but 1 second remaining in the auction. I never bid earlier. I may win, I may lose, but there is no bidding war with a bid placed in the last second.

I looked at this sellers other completed auctions. Most items were from NY. A Genessee point went for $413. Overpriced for sure. But I'll bet the winner was from NYS, if not the very area where the point was said to be found. The same could very well be the case with that small ground slate piece. A couple of people wanted it badly, and would not surprise me if they were collectors from NYS. Many of the completed auctions seemed more in line with what looked like fair market value. I'm no authority or appraiser. For many years now, I'm lucky if I buy one or two relics per year. And when I do, if it's an auction, and not a buy now or "make offer", I always use esnipe, after first deciding exactly how high I am willing to go. Bidding early and often in a back and forth bidding war with one or more other bidders makes no sense to me. Either I win with a second to go, or I lose with a second to go.

[Kyflintguy]

Ha never heard of it (esnipe)! I only bid last second generally but now I know how I get outbid when I place a bid at about 3 seconds lol. A lot of times if your the high bidder already going into the end, you can set a max bid without it even being noticed and those last second bidders can't scramble fast enough to top your max bid too. Kind of a fake out tactic were you know your willing to pay a certain amount but let the bidding stall out well short of what your willing to pay. Either way it comes down to whoever has the highest bid when the auction ends. Don't have that luxury at actual auctions as the auctioneer will keep it alive till only one bidder is left.

[Hoss]

Good information guys thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[Ron Kelley]

Sniper Ron signing in. I have never used a service but I set a timer to remind me of an auction end time. Then I snipe with two to four seconds left. Being a long time sniper I very often have the second highest bid and that's alright with me. I snipe with what I am willing to pay and let the chips fall where they may. I buy no high end artifacts. I have purchased several large collections and rarely buy a single piece. Poor picture quality can be a route to a good buy or a red flag to modern junk. My achilles heel is my love for the unusual. Many items are unusual because they're fake. I think someone once said "Buyer Beware". I have never sold any of my collection but believe I could see a profit if that was my desire. I have purchased many nice end scrapers for ten or twelve cents each just a short time ago. Today I see many similar scrapers selling for more than a buck each. Just a short time ago I purchased many uniface blades with great edge work for pennies each. Today these uniface blades are bringing a much higher price. My point being if you have an interest in artifacts that few people care about you can make a good buy.

[pkfrey]

I could write a short novel, not about artifacts, but about the concept and psychology of collecting. One chapter would be about when the artifact market began, why there is a market, how people react to the market, and why market values are very inconsistent, and not standard like other collectibles. But the end result of what I think is, artifact collecting is very personal, and completely dependent on collectors likes and dislikes. Just because you meet someone who says, " I collect Indian artifacts.", that doesn't mean the person collects every type that was ever made. People have preferences, some like Paleo, others don't, some like to collect only from their own state, others don't care. Some like trade goods, others couldn't care less about a strand of 1600s glass trade beads. And it could go on and on. So, I think that's what dictates values, personal preference and how much passion do you have for the particular artifact being offered, irregardless of the market venue. And this passion relates to value, the more passionate you are, the more your willing to pay. But, keep in mind, nothing can be kept forever. The problem arises when you go to sell the artifact that you were so passionate about. In order to get what you paid for it, you need to find someone with the same amount of passion for the same artifact. Chances are, you won't get the monetary value back, but how can you put a value on all the years that you looked at and handled the artifact that you paid to much for? There isn't a value guide to compensate for all the enjoyment and satisfaction you got from owning that artifact. But that's another chapter!

[Kyflintguy]

I'd buy that book!