Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Blades or Points

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Blades or Points

    It's education time folks. I've been looking over numerous posts and found that some refer to pictured artifacts as "blades" while others refer to similar artifacts as "points." Now I'm in a quandary about how to identify or differentiate between the two. So I'm gonna post a pic of some of mine and see if ya'll can help me tell the difference. Is it the lack of a stem on the base - the length of the artifact - it's intended use after completion or a combination of factors.

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Blades1.jpg Views:	2 Size:	130.4 KB ID:	261075

    The three artifacts on the left are all over 3" in length. The two on the far left are Cobbs Triangular and described in Overstreet's 14th edition as lanceolate blades, un-notched preforms. The 3rd in from the left is obviously a Dovetail, which is described in Overstreet as an elliptical corner notched point with dovetail base. The two artifacts on the right are a little over 2.5" long but only the one on the far right has a stem. I originally classified it as a point but now I'm not so sure. The second in from the right is up for grabs as to whether I'd call it a blade or point. Maybe even a knife, of which I have a few. Ok - that's my description. Now help me out here as to what constitutes a blade??
    Attached Files
    Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

  • #2
    Personally I think that the term point is most often simply a generic term which is usually used to refer to a lithic artifact.
    Blade/knife, dart/arrow would be more descriptive as to the actual usage on the item in question.
    Funny that scrappers are never referred to as points though.
    By the way Chuck, I love your points.
    Bruce
    In life there are losers and finders. Which one are you?

    Comment


    • #3
      Sounds somewhat logical I guess Bruce but that would mean that they are referred to more based on function, as with scrapers, even though most scrapers usually start out as something else.
      Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

      Comment


      • sailorjoe
        sailorjoe commented
        Editing a comment
        Hi Chuck. Your statement about scrapers seems to be a commonly held misunderstood idea. Most scrapers do not start out as something else. They are made that way on purpose.

    • #4
      Second from the right is lanceolate. Maybe Overstreet says Cobbs Triangular says they are....they are triangular lol. I don't know your "types" and am not a typologist but rather a "lumper". I'd look for lanceolate shaped point types from your area to ID....unless and not likely....it's been extensively reworked to the point where the original shape/type is hard to tell. (Like resharpening a point to the extent that there are no more discrete barbs. and it went from large projectile point to knife)
      When I look at Cobbs, unless there is use-wear on the edges, I think they look just like any other preform and you say Ovrst says un-notched preform I would agree. Far left total preform, next one preform, 3rd beautiful finished point. Schweeet.
      Professor Shellman
      Tampa Bay

      Comment


      • #5
        "Point" is a very generic term used instead of arrowhead to cover all "pointy" stones in all time periods.
        "Blades" are also generic and used in much the same way but not all blades are points. Some blades may have been used just as the name suggests, while others may have been used for both cutting and hunting.
        Even true arrowheads ( which didn't occur until +- 3000 bc in the far western and northern arctic and not in N. America until as late as possibly 200 ad? ) were likely used as blades at times.
        Many of the large blades were used as knives ( blades ), spears, saws butchering tools and even projectile points .
        Your two Cobbs were not mounted to a shaft like a Dovetail or a stemmed point would be and the piece right of the quarter much as Tom describes, a used and abused lanceolate point, blade.
        Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

        Comment


        • #6
          Okay, now my head hurts. Too many "points" to ponder.
          Child of the tides

          Comment


          • #7
            I guess I should have used the term "Arrowhead" vs "Point." But then there are a variety of "projectile points"as Greg says. You have arrowheads, thrusting points, darts, bird points (darts?) etc. I h." ave seen lots of our members identify or classify an artifact as a "blade" such as "that's a very nice blade." And almost without exception, that artifact has no stem on the base. I'm thinking that a true "arrowhead" has some means of fastening it to a shaft and that usually means some sort of a stem or modified base such as Side notch or Corner notch, which also serves as barbs to hold the POINT in place once it enters its target. Is this making any sense or am I just rambling.
            Pickett/Fentress County, Tn - Any day on this side of the grass is a good day. -Chuck-

            Comment


            • Kyflintguy
              Kyflintguy commented
              Editing a comment
              Many true arrowpoints from our region have no notches or modification to the base, just simple triangles that are thin and light.

          • #8
            I pretty much say if it's pointy, it's a point. If it's rounded it's a scraper. I know that's as wrong as two dudes on a motorcycle, but that's just how I lump them together.
            Wandering wherever I can, mostly in Eastern Arkansas, always looking down.

            Comment


            • #9
              A couple of true stemless, notchless arrowheads, but your correct most will have stems, barbs or notches. Isn't this hobby fun? Every time you learn something you find out you know less.
              Click image for larger version

Name:	20150606_093328 (2).jpg
Views:	987
Size:	56.9 KB
ID:	261170
              Click image for larger version

Name:	20170311_103049.jpg
Views:	876
Size:	89.3 KB
ID:	261169
              Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

              Comment


              • Havenhunter
                Havenhunter commented
                Editing a comment
                I get the point...

              • Scorpion68
                Scorpion68 commented
                Editing a comment
                Thanks Greg - Like I commented to Josh, I've found a lot of triangles up here. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

            • #10
              I see what you did there, HH....😄
              Wandering wherever I can, mostly in Eastern Arkansas, always looking down.

              Comment


              • #11
                The two far left could be considered pre forms as Tom Suggest although many were used in that manner without further modification as knives. I'd be inclined to call the rest of those knives too... How did you get Lilly to let you borrow her dove? Lol just kidding, awesome bunch of flint knives- pre forms Chuck! Thanks for showing them!
                Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

                Comment


                • #12
                  The cobbs being referred to as a preform has never made sense to me. Why would a preform have a beveled edge from resharpening? Dovetail, hardins, lostlakes, thebes at first stage aren't beveled, unless I am mistaken. Second, third and so on starts the bevel, so then how could a cobbs be a preform? Seems to me it is an unnotched early archaic beveled point "knife ". Some are sharpened to exhaustion. Odd for a preform, atleast that's the way I see it.

                  Comment


                  • Scorpion68
                    Scorpion68 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    It doesn't make much sense to bevel an already formed edge unless it's being resharpened. Then a steeper bevel would be from the 2nd resharpening - I agree. Maybe one of our more experienced knappers or hunters could explain it. Now according to Overstreet 14th ed "These are un-notched preforms for early beveled types such as Decatur, Lost Lake, etc. Has been found with St. Charles points in a cache at the Olive Branch site and dated to 9300-9400 carbon years before present."

                  • sailorjoe
                    sailorjoe commented
                    Editing a comment
                    I never thought the Cobbs I found were any kind of preform. IMO, The stemless base indicates a difference in halfting technique as compared to corner notch points being made in the same general area and during the same general time period.

                • #13
                  Hi Chuck. Sorry that I'm late to your thread It seems like your basic question may have already been answered by others as far as what the terminology may be among many/most amateur collectors. In my case I may say blade to refer to a relatively large stemless tool that some folks may call points and others may call blades. It seems to me to be a somewhat arbitrary thing. A point in amateur jargon can refer to a tool that may have been used for the business end of a knife, spear, arrow or dart. If you are interested in what the nomenclature"really" (lol) is then you may want to do some reading in professional publications though that may not help with communicating with amateurs. Regarding what you are showing us: They all were likely used as knives although because of their size I guess could have been uses as some kind of lance or spear. The term "arrowhead" has been long used among amateurs to refer to every point man flaked from stone no matter what its function may have been. Some collectors new to our hobby and all lay people I ever talked to think they are all arrowheads. It's kinda like the use of the term "bird point". People use to think that because of their small size they were used to kill birds Now, hopefully, we all know better than that. And regarding the shape of the base (stemmed, side notched, corner notched, stemless and triangular or stemless and lanceolate, etc.): For the most part, basal form has no relation to the function of the point.

                  Comment


                  • Scorpion68
                    Scorpion68 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thanks for the comment Sailor. I'm onboard with most of what you've said. I used to use the term arrowhead as a generic term for just about anything I found that was an artifact with a point and sharpened edge. The same applies to most of the people I encounter that are novice or beginner hunters. It takes time to learn all the nuances in terminology of this hobby. I still get confused, mostly because I just don't use the terminology unless I know exactly what it means. I just chalk it up to continuing education. Thanks for posting.

                • #14
                  Now I would absolutely be the last person to answer this but I read this to my husband that collects with me .His mind being in engineering and architecture brought on a new light .
                  We moderns have made up these names for what these Atifact finds are .
                  Case in point I listened to him explain how a point being used on an arrow could with all factors encolved , weight , size of point being used .
                  Mathmatics take over on how this could be projected into the air on an arrow how far , straight etc etc .
                  Wood type , point size again my head hurts from his calculus drawing .
                  Then the blade was obvious to me yes you could throw this with a spear but using at close range
                  as a knife .
                  then being able to cut etc .
                  Greg and Joe had easier thought levels for me to follow .
                  But Joe is right , I think it would be interesting if you find it the explanation of how this is defined .
                  Otherwise we could have Wayne draw up an entire
                  graph on how these would all be used lol
                  no thanks ...
                  Even a mondern bow hunter could contribute some
                  very interesting variables .
                  Good question and I think I'll stick to my imagination till the research is done . I have a point/ blade we call the nervous hunter .
                  Like those old worry stones .. it has a smooth thumb indentation .

                  Comment

                  Working...
                  X