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  • #1

    OK Here is a tech question.

    I am sure we have all seen the "authenticator's" on eBay. There are some that authenticate on eBay that will paper absolutely anything that they are sent. Anyone that spends any time there knows who I am talking about. My question is this......there is a guy that uses something called an Infrared laser based Ramen System.....whatever the heck that is. My reading on this system has never specified that it can be used to determine the antiquity of an item, but I could very well be missing something. Any comments or thoughts?

    Just for clarification, the guys that "authenticate" anything are not who I am referring to when I asked the question about the guy that uses the infrared technology....I am just trying to get input on the system he uses.
    Last edited by Kansas Creekwalker; 10-03-2017, 12:19 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Among other things Infrared Raman Spectroscopy is used for the microscopic examination of minerals, materials such as polymers and ceramics, living cells, proteins and forensic trace evidence. The equipment involved is complex, expensive, & requires in depth knowledge of chemistry & physics. Whether an arrowhead "authenticator" could afford such equipment is suspect IMHO.
    Child of the tides

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    • #3
      I don't recommend buying into the laser authentication on eBay. Here's a good thread with some more in depth discussion... I miss Roger!

      Laser authentication - ArrowHeads.com
      https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/general-discussion-gc5/archaeology-news-reports-discussion-gc43/196477-laser-authentication
      I know the authentication business is not the best topic, there are many varied opinions, some positive, but mostly negative. I am just trying to keep current

      Josh (Ky/Tn collector)
      • Likes 1

      Comment

      • 2ndoldman
        #3.1
        2ndoldman commented
        10-03-2017, 09:37 PM
        Editing a comment
        You are not the only one in Roger withdrawal here Josh.
      • Hi-Lo
        #3.2
        Hi-Lo commented
        10-04-2017, 06:56 AM
        Editing a comment
        What happened to Roger?
      • CMD
        #3.3
        CMD commented
        10-05-2017, 07:29 AM
        Editing a comment
        Hoss said Roger is traveling the world with his wife and would resume posting when he returns. He must be having a nice retirement. I'm sure he'll be back one day....
    • #4
      Thanks for the replies. Initially I thought the concept was bogus, but after reading Dr. Gramley's article I can see where there are applications that could be beneficial. I still like the old tried and true methods but am not as big a skeptic as previously.

      Comment

      • #5
        I sat down with Dr Gramley and a true professional but I disagree with him on certain subjects. We all hold onto what we feel is and makes sense
        Look to the ground for it holds the past!

        Comment

        • #6
          Our conversation was on Cumberland progression
          Look to the ground for it holds the past!

          Comment

          • #7
            And I would be remiss in not saying on his work on sugar hill was premier
            Look to the ground for it holds the past!

            Comment

            • CMD
              #7.1
              CMD commented
              10-04-2017, 01:58 PM
              Editing a comment
              Sugarloaf Mountain....
          • #8
            Many times on eBay you will see an Insight laser evaluation certificate and a Jim Baker certificate together on the same artifact that is an obvious fake. I wouldn't trust an Insight evaluation anymore than I would a Baker evaluation. On eBay, butterball7132 is one of the most fraudulent sellers that uses Baker and Insight to peddle their reproductions.

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            • #9
              Originally posted by Cachefind09 View Post
              Many times on eBay you will see an Insight laser evaluation certificate and a Jim Baker certificate together on the same artifact that is an obvious fake. I wouldn't trust an Insight evaluation anymore than I would a Baker evaluation. On eBay, butterball7132 is one of the most fraudulent sellers that uses Baker and Insight to peddle their reproductions.
              Yeah, it's pretty tough to have confidence in an Insight thumbs up if it's confirming a Baker thumbs up! It's gotten to the point, and long since, where a Baker thumbs up means "this is to be avoided". Pretty sad, and the prices realized on some of these no brainier modern productions is sadder still. Fact is, it's hard to save people from themselves sometimes...

              Rhode Island

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              • #10
                This was interesting to read because I just can’t bring myself to buy anything on eBay and think it’s real .
                I love to collect but the best part of it all is finding it , the stories , the experience .. just being outside with friends .
                But I do get you hard core Collectors and wanting a piece but getting it at a show or trade .

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                • #11
                  The authentication business these days is just that, a business with no passion, and simply a money making, easy, legal rip off. Why collectors still adhere to the COAs and trust them is beyond me, when they ( collectors ) could do it themselves. It's not rocket science. The best $200 investment a collector can make, is buying a microscope and learning how to use it. And it doesn't take a genius to do it. Simply buy 20 $1.00 points of different materials for your collecting area, then buy 20 $1.00 modern points of the same materials, and study the differences between prehistoric with weathering and patination, and modern with no age. It doesn't take long to educate yourself. It takes a little longer to study hardstone, drilling techniques, surface grinding, manufacturing process, etc., but in time each collector can do the same thing the authenticators do for free. Minus the $200 for a decent microscope. There's no point singleing anyone out by name, because none of them are any good. I had the famous authenticator from Texas tell me my Clovis was " An unusual purple chert from N.Y. " That ended up in an Overstreet Guide, 10th edition. It's Alibates chert from Texas, and the authenticator is from Texas, but couldn't identify Alibates chert!!! Now come on!!
                  http://www.ravensrelics.com/
                  • Likes 1

                  Comment

                  • CMD
                    #11.1
                    CMD commented
                    10-05-2017, 07:44 PM
                    Editing a comment
                    That is hard to believe. And he's regarded as one of the best, at least for his region, and in terms of honesty as well. That's rather inexplicable, although I notice he often offers very generic, non specific descriptions, of the lithic itself on his COA's. Still, that's bizarre...
                • #12
                  He actually COAd the point as a Crowfield, it's in the last 14th Ed. of Overstreet, pg. 109, top left. The chert however isn't mentioned this time. Even in black & white, you can see it's probably Alibates. I researched the history of the point back to the finder. It was found in Alamosa Co., Co. Alibates wouldn't show up in N.Y., and a Crowfield wouldn't show up in Colo. So it's a Clovis, Colo., and it's classic Alibates. I can post a photo of the point with the COA, but I don't want to discredit anyone. No point to that.We all make mistakes and move on.
                  http://www.ravensrelics.com/

                  Comment

                  • CMD
                    #12.1
                    CMD commented
                    10-08-2017, 12:52 PM
                    Editing a comment
                    I checked it out in Overstreet. You're right, knowing it's Alibates I could tell in black and white. But I would not have known in black and white otherwise, too many flow banded rhyolites in my neck of the woods, and I don't know lithic s beyond my area well. I struggle with the local lithics, lol. But good to see the point you were talking about. Thanks...
                • #13
                  Originally posted by CMD View Post

                  Yeah, it's pretty tough to have confidence in an Insight thumbs up if it's confirming a Baker thumbs up! It's gotten to the point, and long since, where a Baker thumbs up means "this is to be avoided". Pretty sad, and the prices realized on some of these no brainier modern productions is sadder still. Fact is, it's hard to save people from themselves sometimes...
                  I've often wondered what would happen if someday someone accidentally sent one of those guys a good point by mistake.

                  Comment

                  • #14
                    That authentication process is rubbish. Why isn’t the smithsonian institute use this technology?

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