How much provenance is needed?

[Notarelichunter]

I know you folks who find your relics have it all, but for collectors like myself who purchase points to put a nice frame together, have a much tougher task. So far I have purchased 20 points and they all have excellent provenance. Many of you have said to buy points from the members store here on this site to get real authentic relics. The problem I’m having with the stores is they list the type and where it comes from. Lots of the high dollar points have good provenance, but points in $50-$100 price range don’t have much. Does knowing type and area found enough provenance to make a purchase?

[CMD]

It's nice to have provenance at least to the level of county and state. It's nice to have as full an ownership history as possible. If you are buying from a certain region, for instance, if you're putting together stuff from the Midwest, or Northeast, or a particular state, you need to know what lithic materials and artifact types are found in said locations. Many years ago, when I was buying, and not just surface hunting my own sites, I made it clear that I preferred artifacts from my home state of Rhode Island. And one of the biggest collectors and dealers in the entire country, decided he would fulfill my wish by simply writing "Rhode Island", with specific locals also written on the piece. I did not realize as yet that the lithics involved were quite impossible for southern New England. And when his partner tried to pull the same bs on me, he was also a dealer, I ignored both of them, licked my wounds, it only involved a few pieces, and registered it as lesson learned. People get burned, not just with fake artifacts, but with fake provenance. That dealer is no longer a dealer, but he was in who's who, and was known to collectors coast to coast. And he was dishonest.

So, not saying you would run into such a situation in any of the stores that exist on this site. Just offering a cautionary tale where location provenance is concerned. I have many pieces that list only county and state. I prefer township if possible. Sometimes you can get it down to a named farm. Some don't mind if all they have is the state, which sometimes is all you can get. The tighter the better, but whatever satisfies you is all that really matters.

[pkfrey]

IMO, there are two priorities an artifact must have before it goes to market. One is, authenticity. Two, is provenance. Each of these would deserve a lengthy discussion, but what it really comes down to, is if your going to buy, find out who the honest and ethical dealers are. For the most part, avoid ebay. It's killing the market and the repros are running rampant!! In reality, sometimes artifacts simply do not have the provenance needed. This is when a farmer from say the 1920s saw arrowheads in the field, picked them up, took them home and put them in a box. He was not interested in cataloging or selling, so they stayed in the box until one day they were sold at auction. With this scenario, it's all about self education. At this point you, the collector, needs to know the type of lithics found in the reported find area, and the types of points. Or any artifacts for that matter. Every part of the country has it's specific regions where certain artifact types will be found, and specific lithics will be used. The collector should be learning this through self education, reference books, studying artifacts, what ever it takes get to know what is found in your area, and what types of lithics will probably be found.
And then you have the collection of artifacts that is being dispersed by the family, and they know exactly where the artifacts came from. And the history and provenance then goes with each artifact. And then there is the wonderful, exact verifiable provenance that just can't be beat. Those are the artifacts that have been pictured, cataloged, photos of the collector holding the piece, in situ photos, the type of provenance we all would like to have. But, unfortunately, that just doesn't always happen. That's why you have to step back one step, and find out who is ethical, and who cares enough about the buyer being satisfied, more than how much money he will make. In the end, it's really pretty simple. if you have your eye on an artifact, and let's say it's obsidian, but said to have been found in Maine. You should know that's a problem. My point is, simply be able to identify the lithic, and artifact type, and know if that is acceptable for the reported find area. All you can do is try and get as much history as you can, but sometimes it is vague, or not there. This hobby is a lifetime learning experience, and it can be very much in depth and sometimes complicated. And sometimes your only recourse is to know who you can trust. And I would add, there is such a thing as human error. Fakes and repros will get through, but it's not intentional that a dealer will handle those and sell them. It's an honest mistake. And that's ok, we're all human. The ones you have to look out for, are those that know the artifact is fake, but they sell it anyway. That is intentional and fraud. And ebay plays a big part of this. I could help you out and tell which sellers are most guilty of this, but that becomes personal and will upset about 80% of the ebay sellers. I really have a lot to say on the subject of authenticity and provenance because I sell artifacts, and it just disgusts me how people get away with selling so many fakes and it doesn't bother them. No conscience! I would trust the sellers who have stores on this site, and if someone makes an honest mistake, it's ok, they will make it right. I hope there is something here that helps, my mind is going in circles, because I have to much to say on this subject. I want to see this hobby be fun and educational, and not about the God Almighty dollar, but it seems like that is where it's headed. But not for everyone!!

[Warren Matthew]

Best thing I have read!!
Authenticating is an issue I haven't been satisfied with anything I have read so far.
This little bit of info helped explain my situation to


Copied and Pasted this here:
Archeologists have tried mightily to sort out the unstemmed projectile points of south Texas into discrete and meaningful groupings or types restricted to certain time periods and/or limited geographical areas. While some success has been had, classification efforts have fallen short of the ideal for many different reasons. As said, the relatively limited number of excavations, the dearth of deeply stratified sites, and the lack of associated radiocarbon dates in the region gives us precious few solid data points. But even if we had much better data, there are other complicating factors.


No one seems to be able to identify some of my points. Blade, knife, preform, point.?.?.?

I know exactly where they came from, have some in situ photos too. Will on all finds from now on!


Thanks for the words of wisdom

[pkfrey]

Thanks Warren, My mind was racing as I wrote that, and I was hoping there was some useful information in the post. I could go on and on, but it would turn into a short novel. Basically, provenance is wonderful, if it can be verified. Authenticity is a subject that each collector should take seriously, and how ever they can do it, get the education needed. Stop depending on COAs. If in this hobby, there was finally a time when COAs weren't needed, it would put these crooks out of business. It's touchy for me, because with every artifact I sell, I get personal gratification that the buyer will be happy and proud to add one of my AUTHENTIC artifacts to his/her collection, rather than wondering and worrying if it's authentic. I want to see these crooks on ebay shut down, but don't know how to do it!
Let me add my basic theory when buying. There are only three categories of artifacts. 1. The no brainer good. 2. The no brainer bad. 3. The in between class that your just not quite sure about. The collector should only be buying Number 1, walk away from the other two. And the consequences are slight. If you miss buying a good artifact, so what! Is your world going to end? Will the sun fall out of the sky? People have a built in mind set, that if they want something to be good, they can talk themselves into it. They want a certain artifact so bad, they actually talk themselves into believing it is good. It's called discipline. Collectors need to start putting their own foot down, and discipline themselves. We all need to gang up on these fraudulent sellers, and stop buying their artifacts. Maybe over time, it will put some of them out of business!!