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  • Snapped base points

    I found these two last year in Lawrence Co Tennessee. Just seems a little odd to me to put in all that work just to snap the base and leave it that way. The one on the right has what I believe to be an impact tip fracture. Any ideas for this type of base? Both feel real good in a thumb, forefinger grip so maybe made to not be hafted? This type base rare? Would like to see some other pics if anyone has some...thanks. Click image for larger version

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  • #2
    Both of those points were used as knives. Lots of points have bases that look "snapped". We/you don't know exactly how they were halfted to the handle. Lots of different basal shapes for knives from Paleo times thru Woodland. I would have to have them in hand to offer a strong opinion as to whether they were finished with all knapping except for the base or if they were done with them. As I said, some points were used with what appears to be no basal thinning.

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    • #3
      Interesting...thank you sir. These are the only two I've come across so far that appear to not have any stem work, that I can tell of anyway. I was kind of thinking that they were unfinished, I love learning this stuff.

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      • #4
        Yep, what sailorjoe said. Could have been broken, didn't get right from the start or
        reworked/thinned to where it worked was hafted again. Bases look short ... Those are great examples! I would not call them "snapped base" points as any type and not rare. I think we were discussing this somewhere on here recently, sure I posted these before.
        Last edited by tomclark; 01-09-2019, 09:03 PM.
        Professor Shellman
        Tampa Bay

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        • #5
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          Professor Shellman
          Tampa Bay

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          • sailorjoe
            sailorjoe commented
            Editing a comment
            Hi Tom, it looks like the bases on those points were made that way. As you know, some points were made with very short stemmed bases or no stems at all.

          • JoshinMO
            JoshinMO commented
            Editing a comment
            Really like that flat angled shot Tom.

        • #6

          Some of the Elora points were made like that, The white one with purple specks of Toms would be one of those. You can see where some flakes were struck downward from the square base
          South East Ga. Twin City

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          • #7
            Yes, those are nice...thanks for the pics, I hadn't seen them yet. I see what you mean about my bases being shorter. The one on the left I posted a couple weeks ago and the consensus was it's a kirk corner notch, other one appears to be too. Sorry for the confusion on calling them snapped base points.

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            • #8
              Interesting finds! They both put me in mind of the White Springs type... The bases being snapped makes it a tough call but I just don't see Kirk's there. I've seen many examples and more commonly in late archaic to woodland era projectiles and knives, that would be made with the bases unfinshed or unworked along the basal edge. Sometimes we call them rind bases. I'll add a link to the White Springs type and see if I can find and add a photo of a few examples I have of points that were likely made and used with this flat, unfinished basal treatment.

              https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...=1547088708003
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              Last edited by Kyflintguy; 01-09-2019, 10:11 PM.
              Josh (Ky/Tn collector)

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              • sailorjoe
                sailorjoe commented
                Editing a comment
                Hi Josh, The point you are showing us looks a good bit like a Swan Lake, although a bit larger than many I've seen. I had 35 of them in my old collection. Many had bases that were unthinned. Regarding White Springs points. The ones I've seen have bases that were thinned somewhat. One of the distinguishing things about the White Springs type is its extremely short stem.

              • ILLannoyReb
                ILLannoyReb commented
                Editing a comment
                I know it's got to be hard to id points by my crappy pictures, maybe I'll get my stuff in the right hands someday for better analysis. Thank you, I appreciate all input...and the link.

            • #9
              Nice, I got a Topic Here about this.
              http://joshinmo.weebly.com

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              • ILLannoyReb
                ILLannoyReb commented
                Editing a comment
                I should've figured y'all touched on this before, guess I need to learn to use the search function lol. Thanks for linking me to it, I enjoyed it.

            • #10
              I am convinced that some point types and some variations within types were purposefully not thinned at the base. The key to this, I think, is if the side edges are finished and particularly if the edges are finished and show signs of use and the base is unfinished then it was purposefully left that way. I dislike the term "snapped" because it leads some of us to think it was a broken point. The blade that was struck from a core was just never chosen to be thinned at the basal end. Josh's term rind bases is just his way of describing which end of the blade was used as the base when the blade was struck from a chert river cobble. If the chert came from a quarry site it would have no such "rind". And although Josh seems to disagree, I am definitely convinced that fairly often the bases on the Kirk Straight/Serrated type was often made with no basal thinning. To illustrate what I mean I'm gonna give the following statistics from my former collection. I had 40 of the Kirk type, all personal finds. Of those 40 they broke down into the following subtypes: Corner Notch-16, Serrated edge,Straight stem-4, Straight edge, Straight stem-4, Bifurcated base-2, Kirk "snapped" (which is basically a Kirk Straight with an unthinned base) -16. So out of 40 Kirks over 1/3 had unthinned bases. If the makers wanted to thin the bases they would have done so. I long ago concluded that it had to have something to do with the way they were set into the handle. And just because it does not appear as a "subtype" in Overstreet or other popular guides just means they are not recognized by the authors of those books. I think there is no need to call them by a subtype. It's only for some reason (probably the way they were set into the handle) the makers felt no need to thin the base. Otherwise, just a Kirk Straight and "ain't broke". I believe it likely that they wanted it that way. I choose to call them either Kirk corner notch or Kirk straight. The Straights just had more variation in the edges and bases.

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              • #11
                Tom's Topic also
                I've found a lot of points with imperfect bases. Thinning attempts and mess ups... They were still used/hafted as long as it worked boom. Post yours.
                http://joshinmo.weebly.com

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                • ILLannoyReb
                  ILLannoyReb commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Enjoyed this link also, and I see it was only one month ago...sorry everyone, I really need to use the "search".

                • JoshinMO
                  JoshinMO commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No prob Man. I think I found another but still have to take a looksee. I actually think some were made like this but Others could be re-based.

              • #12
                Hi Illannoyreb. Was wondering about your name. I'm sure you're not an Illinois guy who likes to annoy us Rebs. LOL Just wanted to make an additional remark about your choice of words in your initial post. You use the term "impact" fracture and lots of other folks use that term when the distal end appears to be broken as if it struck something hard while it was moving. Your points were knives and not dart points or arrowheads. What is likely the case is the point of the knife may have been used for something it was not intended for. For example using the tip as a pry or lever. Lots of folks today have broken knive points and screwdrivers for that matter by using them inappropriately. It could have been broken that way or when using it to cut thru the joints of large game animals., etc.

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                • ILLannoyReb
                  ILLannoyReb commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No sir not trying to get under anyones skin lol. It's just a play on the spelling of Illinois, and my parents gave me the Reb nickname many moons ago because of my rebellious nature. Thanks for the clarification about breaks, makes sense when you think of these as knifes.

              • #13
                Sailorjoe has this flaking process down to about a science! I don't think I could add any explanations for an impact fracture or a snap base point. SJ did a short, but great essay and explanation.
                http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                • sailorjoe
                  sailorjoe commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Thank you Paul. I appreciate it, especially coming from you.
                  Last edited by sailorjoe; 01-10-2019, 01:35 PM.

                • pkfrey
                  pkfrey commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I think in this hobby, SJ, a little bit of God given common sense and logic can go a lot farther than the next book you read on the subject. You have learned much, Grasshopper!! LOL!!!

                • ILLannoyReb
                  ILLannoyReb commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Yes I believe he did too.

              • #14
                Most or all finds I have found are worked bases. The exception being brokes. Each culture/tribe has a tradition for everything. That flat unworked base has everything to do with what the elders taught them and how to knapp the point for that particular style.

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                • #15
                  Just now seeing this, and I like the idea that these bases were just left unthinned vs being intentionally broken.
                  That never made sense to me.
                  South Dakota

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