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Catlinite Pipes

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  • #16
    Hope you don’t mind me posting pictures. I’m not trying to hijack this thread, since I have already shown this years ago. I was just trying to show you some examples of a catlinite pipe that know is Native American made. The age I don’t know. The site is archaic and historic.
    My name is Gary. I live in NE South Dakota

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    • Ron Kelley
      Ron Kelley commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks Gary, Your pictures are very helpful.

    • pkfrey
      pkfrey commented
      Editing a comment
      Gary, The squared stem could be from a disc catlinite pipe, A small one, but looks like it's in the process of being finished, and broke. All the cut marks and gouge marks are consistent with stone tool marks. Possibly from the Caborn-Welborn culture. I believe they existed in your neck of the woods, and pipes were often of the small, disc variety. Late Mississippian, Maybe 1200 A.D. - 1600 A.D.?

  • #17
    Excellent pics. That is what I called 'used'....with all those 'ghost scratches' as Paul calls them, some not quite ghost-like!

    Learned a lot about Catlinite pipes. Now all I have to do is find one...

    Thanks for the help!
    Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

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    • SDhunter
      SDhunter commented
      Editing a comment
      You’re welcome. Could you see the drill marks inside the pipe? I tried to get the light to shine through it.

  • #18
    Awesome education info Gary. .nice find BTW....never saw this piece

    Comment


    • SDhunter
      SDhunter commented
      Editing a comment
      I posted this pipe quite a few years ago.

  • #19
    Some great information in this topic
    TN formerly CT Visit our store http://stores.arrowheads.com/store.p...m-Trading-Post

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    • #20
      Most of these pipes were ceremonial, found years ago in mounds/burials. if it doesn't have a history of the provenance? It would be questionable......

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      • #21
        Just been offered this Catlinite pipe. Hope to soon see it in person - will take pics, and view under 10x stereo scope if owner allows me to. Owner apparently thinks it belongs in Smithsonian....
        A wooden 'stem' goes with it.
        Attached Files
        Last edited by Cmcramer; 05-02-2019, 05:27 PM.
        Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

        Comment


        • SDhunter
          SDhunter commented
          Editing a comment
          This pipe looks suspicious to me. Those grooves look too uniform to have been made by ancient man

      • #22
        Good luck. Learned a lot about pipes in this thread but still no idea here but I will say that stem looks like it may have some age.
        Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan

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        • #23
          When you get a look at the actual pipe: Take pictures in natural light and take pictures of the inside of the bowl.
          Michigan Yooper
          If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything

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          • #24
            SDhunter....I hear you. What confuses me is similar pipes auctioning for $1000+, with 'grooves' that look similar. Are any of these pipes made by 'ancient man'? Aren't they all post-contact, when NA could have had steel tools, steel knives? Here is a $1500 pipe/stem, so says the auction marketplace.
            Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

            Comment


            • pkfrey
              pkfrey commented
              Editing a comment
              With the exception of the Hopewell and some other specialty catlinite pipes, this type is always post contact. Even though white mans tools were available, many natives preferred to continue making these the old way, using sharp flint flakes, drills, and wooden reeds. But you will see indications of this in cut marks where the bowl meets the pipe body, some non-perfection areas where one side doesn't match the other, On this one, notice the similarities when compared to the other one. The same raised ridges, same basic style, same buffed finish, same everything, and the two look like they were made by the same person, in the same more modern workshop. The material on the stem looks more like cloth, but not probably vintage trade cloth. hard to see. Visualize this. You just buffed out the toe area on your brand new leather cowboy boats. wear them for one day, and you will start to notice new scuff marks, little scratches, etc. You can not make a pipe like this 100 years ago, and still have it maintain the extreme, perfectly buffed and polished surface that it appears to have today. These pipes were used, They got dented, scratched, absorbed with body oils, heated and smoked, passed around, and laid down where the smoker was not paying attention, and got scratched and marred from different sharper objects. Even putting these pipes constantly inside and taking out of beaded rawhide pipe bags would have created some scratching on the surface.

          • #25
            Visited owner/seller of a Catlinite Pipe, pictured below, because I have never seen one, or held one. Heavier than expected, pretty cool was my first impression. Beautiful color. Second impression: it's broken, clean through, with a simple glue repair. Owner seemed genuinely surprised, sincerely, but my stereo microscope view convinced him. Next, while a few dozen 'ghost scratches' were present at 10x, along with some nicks, etc, there weren't 'thousands' like Paul is saying there should be on a real old, well-used piece from the 1800's. Not even hundreds. Bowl rim shows some use. Bowl interior nondescript - just some paper/lint in it.

            Wooden stem looks old and worn to me, with nice, dark patina. I think it is ash, but not 100% sure. Its wrappings, however, said to be quill, appear to be shorter replacements - not original. Notice how the patina of the wood is much lighter at both ends of the wrappings - like the replacement was did not cover as much as the original.

            Seller claims that an auction house we have all heard of, via some photos only, appraised this piece at....a REALLY high price. Could they have known it was broken clean through and re-glued? And that the wrappings are apparently replacement?

            I'm not convinced it is really old, like 1800's, because of low number of ghost scratches and Catlinite patina not quite ox blood deep enough. Newer wrapping troublesome - Not original is my guess. Not sure if the wrapping is quill....need to do some more research.

            Seller was disappointed I did not make an offer - he wants to sell, but it's not for me....unless he accepts 1/10 the supposed auction house appraisal.


            Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

            Comment


            • pkfrey
              pkfrey commented
              Editing a comment
              Chris, Your ok to walk away from this one, irregardless of how it's described, good call on your part, and you picked out the areas that just don't show proper surface wear and tear considering the reported age. The pipe isn't extremely old, it doesn't have the aged use wear marks, and appears to have been buffed on a mechanical wheel. The color is just way to consistent overall. It is quilled, but the quill work is replaced, newer, and synthetically dyed. You can see this by the more consistent colors, no fading between strips. Quill work was done, one quill at a time. It was flattened and scraped of the inside pith, then soaked in a vat of natural dyes. Then left to dry, but then moistened again to make them pliable, then wrapped around a piece of treated rawhide or sinew. As this rawhide began to dry out, it expanded, loosening the quills that were wrapped. I've never seen a quilled pipe stem with 100% intact, spiraled quill work. Naturally dyed quills will show noticeable changes in coloration. And by now, if the pipe was say even 1910, the quill work would have loosened up from the rawhide/sinew strips that the quillwork was wrapped around. That bright purple against yellow, and blue looks very unusual. The break at the extension is normally where the more recent pipes will break. This part is held in a wedge device while the drilling is taking place. The heat caused by the drilling, along with the pipe vibrating, would naturally break the pipe at this spot. This pipe with stem looks more in the 1950s or newer pipe. ( Look at my store item, MSM26, this is what aged, natural quill work looks like on a handle that's over 100 years old, The yellow dyed quills have actually faded out to a cream color, and the changes in the red are very visibly different if colors.)
              Last edited by pkfrey; 05-04-2019, 05:23 PM.

          • #26
            Guess I will consider this a good learning experience, one that did not have any tuition charge. I'm getting better, more observant, as I view some of these artifacts in private collections. Thanks for the help, Paul and others, on this thread.
            Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

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            • #27
              I’m sure glad you didn’t get took. It would be a cool art piece, if purchased at the appropriate price, whatever that is. Some artwork is way higher in price than I would ever pay.

              Good information Paul. Thanks
              My name is Gary. I live in NE South Dakota

              Comment


              • #28
                Yep, it definitely has some value, but I just had no idea where to start. Plus, seller needs some time to come off the 'appraisal' he claimed to have received.

                It is contemporary...... it has replacement wrapping....... and.....wait for it....it is b-r-o-k-e-n in two!
                Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

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