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Thought I would share a few more pictures.

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  • Thought I would share a few more pictures.

    Hi guys, going through all my points while learning my new Scope. I wish I could say I found it, But it was a purchase a while ago. This is one of my favorites.
    The scope really does make a difference, vs a loop. Enjoy the pictures.
    Last edited by c_venture; 05-30-2019, 08:27 AM.

  • #2
    That is really weird ! I’ll never be bold enough to say a point is good or bad from a pic. I’m thinking that would be like sniffing the screen.. I see iron oxidation on the lithic material.. I can’t see a modern day knapper leaving dimples in a notch like that... Do you think it was punch flaked , the E notches ? JJ

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    • #3
      To echo Lindenmeier,

      That's amazing.

      Those tiny spurs are so finely knapped. Could anyone still do that?

      The micro traces clinging to fissures and cracks really are interesting too.

      Could it potentially contain other material locked into the oxidation?

      Do they test that kind of stuff?

      Have they ever found DNA?

      I could look at pictures like that all day....

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      • #4
        That cool

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        • #5
          Really like the detail! Thanks for posting. Here are our E- Notched Thebes from our Ohio farm, all personal finds, broken ! on bottom I found this spring. Louie Click image for larger version

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          • c_venture
            c_venture commented
            Editing a comment
            Loudog, I freeking Love the two to the far right. if you ever find any more please let me know would love to see the pictures. If you dont mind what county are you in in Ohio? Near flint ridge?

        • #6
          Thank you so much for posting the pictures, Honestly I had a good friend who had an e-notch I tried to get him to sell or trad for it for years, He wouldn't, LOL. I love flint ridge stuff and I just so happened to run across this one, it had two COA's with it, I personally dont give a Rats a about Coa's unless it is from a few select people. But i made an offer and took a chance. My Buddy found his on my uncles farm in Muskingdom Co Ohio, His was nicer and more pronounced than mine. From what i have read it was to help secure the binding material to the shaft and mainly done around Ohio.

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          • loudog
            loudog commented
            Editing a comment
            West central Ohio, Shelby county.

          • loudog
            loudog commented
            Editing a comment
            the broken one I believe to be Nellie chert

        • #7
          Interesting piece. The deposits and the majority of the workmanship look good.

          If it’s authentic it really is one of the most stylized examples I have seen. As you can see on Loudog’s example they are often heavily used and the tip of the E is usually rounded or simply worn off.

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          • #8
            Interesting notch. I can’t add to the conversation much other than I hope it’s good
            My name is Gary. I live in NE South Dakota

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            • #9
              I'm sorry, but I'll be the bad guy on this one. I'm skeptical. A photo doesn't tell all, but first impression is the typology. It's way out of style at the base for a Thebes, and I would expect to see some beveling on the edges. And the deposits appear to be gritty and added, not the standard iron deposits that form as little random clumps. Mostly though, the base is extremely non typical for a Thebes. It should look like a hammerhead sharks snout. Squared at the ends, and not so symmetrical relative to the shoulders. The tips at the E are usually worn down from either the hafting element, or from use wear, as noted by Clovisoid. Was this an ebay purrchase, or would you mind telling us where you bought it, from who?
              http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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              • c_venture
                c_venture commented
                Editing a comment
                No No - bad guys here, I appreciate the feed back, that is how we learn. It was someone i met at a show and later purchased from, Not sure i feel comfortable putting his name out. The deposits are rock solid and cannot be removed. All my point that i purchase are swabbed with As-atone and then given a warm rinse with water. The as-atone shows pretty quickly if the point contains any false Patina or deposits. I have a couple I am sending to Bennnett I think I will add this one in to see what he thinks. BTW Jim Bennett's new book is one of the best so far. I will come back and post his results after i get it back. Any-feed back is always appreciated by me... The Bad guys are the ones who try to rip off people who love and respect the hobby!

            • #10
              Jim Bennett's new book, Avoiding Reproduction & Altered Ancient Indian Arrowheads, also recommends looking at other attributes, as well: Do any portion of the iron deposits flake off after being 'prodded' with a toothpick? They should not. Secondly, interior walls of notches often exhibit 'crushing' of the chert, as the force of the maker's blow traveled through the thickness of the piece. A 'shattered' look. In an authentic piece, this 'crushing' - easy to see under 10x - ought to be worn and smoothed, either by use wear or freeze/thaw cycle after a few thousand years under ground. In a reproduction, the crushing appears jagged, sharp. It is interesting to me that the interior walls of the notches - right where you would observe the condition of this chert crushing - seem to be packed with iron deposit, obscuring the view.

              Also, photos 4 and 5 show iron deposits with no staining, no 'halo' : the stain ring around the deposit.
              Last edited by Cmcramer; 05-18-2019, 09:48 AM.
              Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

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              • #11
                This all comes under, An Exception to every rule. This crushing is another concern from the photos. Actually, crushing is a result of the knapper using pressure flaking, but trying to many times to remove a flake to thin the notch. Most crushing can be seen on repros, because the ancient flint knapper knew how to remove these flakes, without using to many attempts. However, if the crushing is ancient, then any small hinge fractures, steps, or ledges would be oxidized to a yellowish color on this material. And it isn't. There isn't any oxidation in the notches. Iron deposits can at times be picked off. That's because throughout the life time of the artifact in the ground, it will continue to patinate, including having deposits of iron, manganese, limonite, caliche, etc., adhere to the surface. During the first stages, most of the iron deposits, if any, will attach themselves to the surface. But after time, maybe 2000 years later, a new deposit will form. These newer deposits. although natural, haven't had time to absorb and cement to the surface. It's the oldest, blackened iron deposits with a halo, called ferrous absorbtion, that are the signs of true antiquity. The material also will e different in many cases. Some material isn't quite so permeable, and won't absorb as much iron. All of this has to go hand in hand with the typology of the point.
                http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                • #12
                  One of the first things to look for is not found under a scope. It's called morphology. Most specific point types will show consistency in overall outline and form. A perfect example are the several Thebes points posted by loudog. When they are seen in a row, you can see how consistent they are in design. On the Thebes you'll see a squarish base with squared ears, a base that is large relative to the shoulders, on resharpened points, the base is wider than the shoulders, beveling on opposite edges, and if an E notch, the tip of the E is dulled and smoothed. Once you find a point that's way to inconsistent to the norm, than that's a red flag, and then the point has to be examined for other factors. The point shown in this post has a Dovetail base with extending, very sharp tips in an E notch form. It lacks beveling, and there's a lot of crushing in the notches. So the form itself is very nontypical, and not consistent with a Thebes.
                  http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                  • c_venture
                    c_venture commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thank you Pk, i appreciate the info, I would really love to know how the mineral deposits were faked. I have read where glue was used etc. Many on this piece can only be seen with a microscope and they do look 3d, Do you have any idea? I do not see the Haleo effect as seen on some of my other pieces but I thought i read that may not always show due to types of materials. I wished you lived closer.. Would love to sit down and chat....

                  • pkfrey
                    pkfrey commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Sometimes, artifacts are found in soil that is not iron rich. So what happens is, iron from the artifact leaches out to the surface and builds up in small lumps. But this causes the iron to stain the surface around the deposit. On true iron deposits, there will be a rust colored area around the deposit. The more iron there is, the more staining there is. This is due to the hardness of the lithic. If the rust deposits are on the surface for an extended amount of time, the iron will naturally dissolve into a rust colored stain that surrounds the deposit. This is the halo, or " ferrous absorption ". . It's a little hard to explain, but under a scope you can see how the deposit is now cemented to the stone. The deposits can be removed, but with some force, they don't just pop off. The only way I know people do this, is to take lumpy pieces of rusted iron and glue them on with super glue.But at an angle, this will show up under a scope. Or, put a little glue in the hinge fractures and with your thumb, rub particles of rust into the crevices. Let it dry, and it looks like iron deposits. But that's sandy and gritty looking. On your point, I would look for other details. Like the ridges between the flake scars. Are they weathered smooth, or sanded smooth. If sanded, you will see parallel striations over the surface of the ridge. It's all hard to explain unless you have perfect examples of how deposits will vary from one stone to another, and dependent on the type of soul they were in. Below are some photos. I'll explain each one, and they can be compared to what you have.

                • #13
                  Here's some micro photos. First, most of the lumps of iron deposits will form on the high spots of an artifact. Especially the ridges between flake scars. The first photo are iron groups in a notch that is entirely smoothed on the edge. The deposits formed over the smoothing, meaning the artifact was finished and then the deposits formed. They're tight, and look like little lumps. Then, a quartz piece, showing how the
                  edges, even if crushed, should be yellowed with oxidation in any of the hinge fractures.
                  Then, a group or line of deposits showing how the iron has stained the surface around the base of the deposits. This is partially due to some of the iron being dissolved into the rusty stain. I hope this helps a little. It's a complicated, but interesting study, what natural weathering does to an artifact.
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                  http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                  • #14
                    The photos of what you are thinking are deposits, look more like just rusty stained dirt that someone rubbed on the surface, and into the hinge fractures. maybe using a mixture of watered down glue to hide the shine from the glue. It's hard to say without having it in hand.
                    http://www.ravensrelics.com/

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                    • pkfrey
                      pkfrey commented
                      Editing a comment
                      The one big problem is, there is no legal recourse for fakers to sell their fakes. Even though it's a form of fraud, they choose the defense, Well, your supposed to know what your buying.! So the only way to combat this, is to educate yourself, IN DEPTH, and buy a scope, and learn what to look for. Now, I have a theory that is about 99.9% accurate. First, Trust your very first, initial gut instinct. If you think a piece is bad, it probably is, 99% of the time. There are always exceptions. But my theory is simple. There are only three types of artifacts.
                      1. The NO BRAINER good piece with a solid history.
                      2. The NO BRAINER fake/repro that you can tell from a photo. These are ones that a five year old can pick out at 50 yards!
                      3. And then, The ones that fall in between 1 and 2. These are the ones that your just not sure. You think there's something wrong, but can't quite put your finger on it. You roll it over and over in your hand, show it to other people, and then start justifying why it MIGHT be good. And that is because only in your mind, you WANT it to be good. You should only be buying the number 1s.
                      And if your wrong, and you pass on what was a good artifact, so what, your world won't come to an end, and the sun won't stop shining. People tend to buy artifacts because they're big and pretty, and are a rare type, and then authenticity becomes a second priority. Always, Trust yourself and trust your own instincts.
                      Last edited by pkfrey; 05-21-2019, 10:30 AM.

                    • pkfrey
                      pkfrey commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Ok,You bought my number 3 in my theory. And you even stated, " I really wanted it, but knew I shouldn't have bought it. ! You weren't comfortable with the piece, but you wanted it to be good, so you took a chance. This happens, and it's ok, but you didn't trust yourself, and if it does indeed turn out to be bad, I hope you get a refund for it. Never buy an artifact, from anyone, without a return option.

                    • c_venture
                      c_venture commented
                      Editing a comment
                      One Last comment I would like to make, if you do buy on the Internet, be it Auctions or where ever, Please do not base you decision solely on COA's. They are opinions, And there are some really bad opinions out there in the form of COA's. Not all... but you are better off listening to Paul, use your gut feeling and trust yourself. If is is to good to be true it most likely is... Not all COA's are created equal.... Some of the best advice I have gotten is, buy a scope and learn how to use it... I bought one and I am still learning how to use it. The pictures that were provided in this thread were worth their weight in "Authentic" Arrowheads... Thank you..

                  • #15
                    Interesting information, Paul, as usual.
                    If I owned this artifact, c_venture, I would not just 'warm water rinse'....I would soak it it HOT water for 20-30 minutes, then brush the notches vigorously with a toothbrush....and repeat. I would want to eliminate water-soluble glue plus iron as a possibility. Old water-soluble glue needs considerable time in hot water to loosen up.
                    Cayuga County, NY Finger Lakes Region

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