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Dalton or Redstone N.C. Quartz point?

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  • Dalton or Redstone N.C. Quartz point?

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    SE ARKANSAS

  • #2
    Dude, that thing is beautiful.👍
    Wandering wherever I can, mostly in Eastern Arkansas, always looking down.

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    • #3
      Wow I don't know? Hard to tell. The very few redstones I've handled have multiple flutes and are considerably wider. I know that paleo knappers in NC loved to use crystal quartz, but I've found a couple of woodland triangles that were made with the clear stuff. Cool thing is that the crystal pieces I've seen in Rankin and chase city museums run slightly atypical, so being that it's widest at base could place it in paleo or transitional. How thick is that beauty?
      North Carolina

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      • #4
        I'd say it has a Redstone shape. Did you buy it?
        "The education of a man is never completed until he dies." Robert E. Lee

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        • Artifascination
          Artifascination commented
          Editing a comment
          I purchased this piece! It was found in Randolph County NC.

      • #5
        Art that is just a sensational piece. Like KP asked is a buy or a find? If its a find that is the score of a lifetime...at least it would be for me. If its a purchase it is still a prized possession.
        The chase is better than the catch...
        I'm Frank and I'm from the flatlands of N'Eastern Illinois...

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        • Artifascination
          Artifascination commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks Frank! I could not believe the man that found this beauty actually was willing to let it go. It resembles a quartz Clovis that I saw in a museum and I have been fascinated with transparent quartz points every since. Doesn’t seem to be many around so I jumped on this one when it came up. I believe it is a redstone because it appears to have multiple flutes and a wider base but Daltons can have many different types so was trying to get some opinions.

      • #6
        Hate to be a doubter but I think I saw this for sale. And I do know that crystal points don't patinate. Plus the fact that I've seen a whole tot of faked crystal paleo from the Carolinas. I would be super wary of buying any point especially a crystal quartz one. For your sake I hope it's legitimate!
        Last edited by utilized flake; 01-05-2020, 05:48 PM.
        North Carolina

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        • Artifascination
          Artifascination commented
          Editing a comment
          I have about 20 quartz points from NC and all of them have patina and mineralization on them but this one is nicer and going to get certified after the new year.

        • utilized flake
          utilized flake commented
          Editing a comment
          Good luck! I do know that quartz doesn't hold patina like rhyolite does in NC materials ( of which there are basically only two) I also know that if it was a Redstone or paleo/ transitional point like a hardaway...and was legitimate it would stay in state. As in the fact that a NC buyer would pay way more for it than someone from out of state. I am no authenticator of any means, I'm just a collector, and out of my 5,000 or so points I only have two crystal ones. The reddish orange material in the hinge fractures is similar to what I've seen on some repros. Again I hope it's legit, but wonder who would certify it. As far as I know there aren't any authenticators in NC. Just my two pennies man.

        • Artifascination
          Artifascination commented
          Editing a comment
          It is easy to doubt rare pieces with so many fakes on the market but there are some authentic ones still out there. Nothing wrong with skepticism but I am just curious if I can get some help on ID. At first thought it was Dalton but seems to match up with redstone type a little more.

      • #7
        Yea I'm not sure but UF makes a great point about Crystal Quartz points not having a patina I thought the same. I'm a little skeptical one this on as well. Hopefully I'm wrong.
        N.C. from the mountains to the sea

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        • pkfrey
          pkfrey commented
          Editing a comment
          Hi R.S.! Hope all is well. First, I don't think it's a Redstone. Redstones are rare, and are normally fully fluted at least 3/4 of the way on both sides, but may have two flutes. One flute being the remnant of a guide flute.The flutes are wide, and the base is concave with fine pressure flaking along the extent of the base line. The basal edges are never constricted, and the form appears as a large equilateral triangle, with the exception of the concave base. In your photo, I don't see any defined fluting present, sometimes it's hard to pick out on crystal quartz, but it should appear fluted. There's two things you can do at home. Simply wash it, and see if any of that orangish color washes off. If it does, that's half a red flag. Who ever found this should have cleaned it, and there shouldn't be any dirt left in the hinge fractures. Second, look at the basal edge grinding. It should be rolled, and smooth, if you see any parallel striations, that's another half red flag. Crystal quartz doesn't hold mineral deposits very well, but the hinge fractures should be yellowed from oxidation. If this is authentic, and I'll leave that open because I didn't handle it, it would be one of a kind. Out of maybe 12 Redstones that I have handled, I've never seen one made from crystal quartz. Material is important. The Paleo folks found the best silca cherts and flints available, even if they had to travel 200 miles to get it from a specific quarry. Maybe you have it and don't want to post it, but I would be concerned if you bought this for just simply N.C. A point like this would be so rare and talked about, you should have, and need, exact provenance. And the finders name. I looked at Overstreet's guide, and they're a little off. Multiple flutes are not standard for a Redstone. These are normally mistyped resharpened Clovis points when they have multiple flutes on each side. This is one criteria that sets this point apart from the others. The full flute, at least on one side ( the side that's fluted first ) and possibly two flutes on the other, where the remnant of a guide flute is still visible. If authentic, and I hope it is!, I would be more inclined to call it a Dalton. Send it up at your convenience, I would enjoy seeing this! Thx., Paul P.S. Since you mentioned the finder didn't know what it is, then you do have the finders name. In this case, so the info is never lost, the finder then should also be able to put this point on an " X " on any map, you need SPECIFIC provenance. It will help establish authenticity, and will maintain the point's value.
          Last edited by pkfrey; 12-10-2019, 08:14 AM.

        • pkfrey
          pkfrey commented
          Editing a comment
          I'd also like to mention the size, since I'm guessing based on that one inch mark. This one is about 1 1/4" ? Redstones will be in the 2 1/2" - 3" inch average length, and although they may exist, I've never seen one less than two inches. The flaking also will be consistent with Paleo culture type flaking. The edge flaking on a Redstone was very consistent, almost semi parallel, and the flakes removed are small and thin, leaving behind a shallow flake scar. It's hard to see in the photos. I'm now thinking what you bought is in fact, authentic, and it's a Caraway Late Woodland triangle. This type is found extensively through out Randolph Co. You have to be careful buying points with this shape. It's so reminiscent of Paleo forms with the concave base, that sellers will automatically put these into the Paleo assemblage, just to enhance the value. I hope this isn't to discouraging, but you should know what you have.
          Last edited by pkfrey; 12-10-2019, 03:57 PM.

        • Sugaree
          Sugaree commented
          Editing a comment
          The most beautiful Caraway ever!

      • #8
        Man I hope that thing is legitimate. It would be the find of anyone's lifetime. Freaking gorgeous.

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        • #9
          Fake or not, sure is pretty. Of course, if fake can’t put in museum creating! Lemme see: three-drill driller, jade celt, fishtail Dalton, little stone effigy Don Dickson, birdstone fossil....those just remember, know others. Btw, see birdstone avatar replaced by vehicle (about which this member clueless!). Miss icon own personal favorite artifact all times. But will see it in person when visit Art’s Artifact Museum! Looking forward seeing all, but especially The Birdstone and the display case designated “Ashley’s Artifacts”!
          Digging in GA, ‘bout a mile from the Savannah River

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          • #10
            Reviving an old thread. Did you find out anymore about this piece? I don't doubt it's authentic but I would be inclined to say a later triangle. Caraway or yadkin, a ton of them found in randolph county. I know someone with several crystal points and another with a broken sho nuff crystal Clovis or redstone and it is much larger than your picture. Also as mentioned, little to no patina on any of them. Very nice piece, do you still have it?

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            • Artifascination
              Artifascination commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks. I had this point authenticated and it is a Caraway concave. I have it in a small frame with 5 other crystal and agate triangles.

          • #11
            Very nice! I'm a sucker for the crystal ones. Have found quite a few flakes but only one clear point myself

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