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  • Why there isn't many Utah people here

    Nothing
    Last edited by Kaleb; 08-08-2020, 05:03 PM.

  • #2
    Here on arrowheads,com, we encourage people to understand the laws governing collecting, by individual states, and laws governing federal lands, public lands. At the end of the arrowheads.com link that you posted, I posted a video, by Dana Hollister, who, for my money, makes the best short videos documenting Ancestral Puebloan sites on public land in SE Utah, in which he demonstrates what constitutes ethical and legal behavior when visiting sites on Cedar Mesa, that area of the Bears Ears region of SE Utah which contains the largest and best preserved concentration of Ancestral Puebloan(once known as the Anasazi) in the entire Southwestern region of the United States.

    What happened, some years ago now, and desecibed at that older arrowheads.com link was really tragic. I believe there were mistakes made by federal authorities. I think the suicides were the ultimate tragedies. I also believe artifacts were looted from public lands, many from the very Bear Ears region where recently an attempt was made, later overturned, to include the Cedar Mesa region as part of a Bears Ears National Monument, which was to be partially administered by 5 Southwest tribes, the first time such a responsibility was to be borne by tribal entities in the United States.

    And, therein lies some danger with threads like this. Because included in this, at this point, is the issue of local vs. federal interests where our Western public lands are concerned. And we need to be extremely careful where political issues are concerned on our forum. We have our opinions in tha regard, and it's likely we will not all be on the same page.

    But, really, I think, the SW has artifacts that bring big $$$, I'm thinking especially of pottery, and looting has always been a problem on public lands in the SW. I do not believe the "answer" is, "oh, we poor collectors, and the big, bad federal land agents, etc.". The answer is obey the laws governing artifacts on public lands. I highly recommend watching the Dana Hollister video, "The Story of Tommy", at the second link you posted. Responsibility toward humans and artifacts on public lands involves "look, don't take". Pretty simple, frankly. Watch how Dana and his wife treat material cultural remains when they come across them. That is how responsible visitors behave toward our national cultural prehistoric and historic heritage on our public lands.
    Rhode Island

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    • Kaleb
      Kaleb commented
      Editing a comment
      I should have been more clear, I was only referring to hunting on private land. I agree with the protection and preservation of public lands. The big issue I have is how can you keep information about public lands private. You can not access or read any documents related to even the biggest tourist attraction sites. You can only read what's on the signs at the park unless you are a state approved archeologist. Everyone knows about the site it's not a secret so why are the papers documenting it? I agree with what you said and im excited to check out those videos. I know these articles were about public lands but most people here don't and no one makes that clear. I've shown people some of my finds and that's what I hear every time "you're going to get arrested". No, I'm not everyone of my finds was on private land.

      I should probably start letting my posts sit overnight. I get all riled up over something and don't think about what, how, or how what I'm saying might be interpreted. So I'll try to watch that more.

    • Kaleb
      Kaleb commented
      Editing a comment
      One thing I will say that I noticed I must have forgotten about in my rant is how the media portrays these people to be monsters and bottom dwellers. They speak for the natives saying it's like vandalizing a church. I've never met a native who felt that way. I have some freinds who live on a reservation and still practice all their traditions. Most of them believe that these sites are bad juju and make them physically ill and even blame some deaths on the spirts of these sites. They even go as far as destroying petroglyphs and pictographs to get rid of them. I'm getting off track again... anyways I've got to stop myself on this post for a while and maybe I'll be able to come back and be more clear headed.

  • #3
    I don't know the laws involving surface collecting artifacts on private land in Utah. But I do know many of the village sites on public lands in Utah, and belonging to the prehistoric culture we call Ancestral Puebloan(aka Anasazi), and consisting of both Mesa top pueblos and cliff dwellings, are like time capsules. So much that is preserved is perishable, and would not have survived in other climes. Things like wooden beams and ladders, corn cobs, etc In some cases, it's as if the inhabitants walked away yesterday. Many are located on public lands heavily visited, which are better protected then locations in remote areas. These heavily visited areas include Mesa Verde National Park in Colorado, Hovenweep National Monument in Utah, Chaco Canyon heritage park in New Mexico.

    Generally speaking, one does not expect looting in these heavily tourist visited ancient sites. But, these are vast lands, not patrolled adequately, and looting occurs. IMHO, they should instead be treated as the precious time capsules that they are. They represent a culture and historical roots that included knowledge of, and contact with, the great MesoAmerican civilizations to the south of our SW region. Our SW Ancestral Puebloan ruins represent the visible memories of a time line and history different then the history of the United States. As such, this overall ancient landscape of our desert SW states represent a national cultural treasure that is incomparable. Every time somebody leaves with points, pottery sherds, etc., from public lands, is an act of disrespect to that nationally important heritage. And the cultures represented in these ancient ruins still lives! At Acoma, the Sky City, on the Hopi Mesas, in the Rio Grande Pueblos.
    Rhode Island

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    • #4
      You know Kaleb, those laws are in place for a reason. I collect off private land and I've never felt that the artifacts are mine. They belong to the land and the indigenous people who lived there. I'm the custodian of them now. But when I read the article from the link posted, I felt a little angered. People hunting on BLM land who dig and do not repair the damage to the site give all legitimate artifact hunters a bad name. I know it is illegal in the first place but just how hard is it to backfill the holes created? I know those holes were not created by you, so don't take this personally, but looking at the holes left behind is evidence of greed and zero respect.
      South Carolina

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      • #5
        I got nothin'. I don't understand how it could be like that. In Kentucky, it's almost like a part of our culture to look for arrowheads. Everybody does it. Nobody cares if you stuff your pockets full of flakes or anything. The Ohio river is technically off limits due to a gray area in the law, but because it is so confusing, a DNR official will just give you a dirty look from his boat and carry on.
        "The education of a man is never completed until he dies." Robert E. Lee

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        • #6
          The laws in Georgia are strict as well. I don't hunt documented sites. I do surface hunt on private land. It's the only way to go imo. You just have to wait for the right time to get out. Asking permission can be hard to do sometimes cause you do get a lot of NO you can't look answers but once in a while you get a yes. No digging allowed is what I have read. I've been stopped a couple of times by DNR. Both times I have been on private property with permission.
          NW Georgia,

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          • #7
            It’s tough, in the future ( Prolly not in my lifetime) hunting artifacts will be prohibited everywhere ..There are rules...
            You don’t tug on Superman’s cape
            You don’t spit into the wind
            You don’t pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
            And you don’t mess around with Big Brother
            Lubbock County Tx

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            • Rio Del Norte
              Rio Del Norte commented
              Editing a comment
              The sooner the better...

          • #8
            Kaleb mentioned Fremont culture. Look what one Utah rancher did not that long ago:

            https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...nch-110879163/

            Rhode Island

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            • gregszybala
              gregszybala commented
              Editing a comment
              Thanks, both very informational about the site.

          • #9
            Between federal and state laws it makes collecting hard to do. For instance, here, private property with permission, no digging, surface finds only.
            You folks out West are surrounded by endless miles of federal and state lands with parcels of private land mixed in. It has to be hard to know where all begin and end at times. Good you do know where you hunt and good the investigator knows as well.
            As long as we stay within the law.
            Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

            Comment


            • Kaleb
              Kaleb commented
              Editing a comment
              I feel like this post went In the wrong direction. I'll leave anyone who is interested in the sw and anasazi and freemont culture read In Search of the Old Ones: Exploring the Anasazi World of the Southwest by David Roberts. There is a chapter on range creek in there that is quite funny because waldo the rancher and the head archeologist don't really see eye to eye.
              Last edited by Kaleb; 12-31-2019, 03:30 AM.

            • CMD
              CMD commented
              Editing a comment
              Kaleb, I was not sure what you were aiming for with the thread. I was not sure if you were basically bemoaning not being able to collect on public land. I agree with Greg that there is much more public lands in our western states. As far as obtaining info, I too regret not enough popular works describing archaelogy in my own New England region. But, in fact, if I really want that info, I can obtain a great deal of it via professional journals and university press publications. Both cost $$, and often a good deal of $$, but, if I really want to know more, that's the best path, other then becoming a working prehistoric archaeologist right here in my region. I don't expect archaeologists I know, or don't know, to give me site locations, due to illegal looting that has taken place out of season at sites the pros are investigating. I understand the professional objections to my collecting activity as well, which sometimes puts me in an awkward situation.

              Anyway, I understand your collection all originates from private property. You never said otherwise, I was just unsure if you were bemoaning the fact that public lands are off limits. And yes, if you like Puebloan sites, the collection of videos by Dana Hollister, many dozens of just a few minutes length each, are the best!

          • #10
            Kaleb, I did read "In Search of the Old Ones" by David Roberts years ago. I know I enjoyed it very much, but off the top do not remember the section on Range Creek. Utah is my favorite place on Earth, and SW archaeology of Ancestral Puebloan sites and culture is one of my favorite subjects of study.
            Rhode Island

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            • Kaleb
              Kaleb commented
              Editing a comment
              It might have been his next book the lost world of the old ones. He goes to several places in his second one so it's probably that one. Both are to good to put down.

            • Dunewalker
              Dunewalker commented
              Editing a comment
              Anyone having read David Roberts works regarding Cedar Mesa, the Ancient Pueblo People, or southwest NA culture in general, will know his aversion to removing anything - projectile points, pottery sherds, full pots or baskets - from the context in which it was found. As an artifact hunter myself who lives not far from Mesa Verde, "In Search of the Old Ones" really shook my core belief that I needed to go out and liberate artifacts from my neighbor's ranches, even though I have their permission. Then I see the damage that a herd of cattle or sheep can do to the landscape and I shrug that off knowing how easy it is to break a point in a hundred pieces by just handling it wrong. That being said, I highly recommend everyone who loves the Search to read Mr. Roberts' work and see the other side to the love for artifact collecting...that it can be done with memories, words and pictures, not riker cases.



              There's a link to Mr. Roberts' first book.
              Last edited by Dunewalker; 03-03-2020, 11:08 AM.

            • Kaleb
              Kaleb commented
              Editing a comment
              I'm going to guess you and canyon walker are hiking buddies. Either way what I said below goes to you just the same. Looking forward to reading posts.

          • #11
            Arizona is also very strict about collecting . I only surface hunt on private land but there are many dwellings that have been dug up it saddens me also the damage from cattle and wild donkeys and the off roaders makes me sadder .

            Comment


            • Kaleb
              Kaleb commented
              Editing a comment
              You nailed it there I feel the same way. It causes a lot of conflicting points of view for me. Sometimes I get a little depressed that I can't share it with more people. I have done everything I could in the way of documenting sites and finds within reason. It would be great if their was a South western archeology site where people could post their info to share with state archeologists. Something like pidba.
              Last edited by Kaleb; 03-05-2020, 01:17 AM. Reason: Typo's

            • Kaleb
              Kaleb commented
              Editing a comment
              Sorry for the overload there glad to see more people in my area. I'm looking forward to your posts

          • #12
            IMHO, Dana Hollister makes the best short videos of the Cedar Mesa area of Utah. Most of the clips of he, his wife, and friends exploring Cedar Mesa are only 3-5 minutes in length, and I could watch them all day. He's always uploading new ones. But, this one reflects his philosophy, which is the approach taken by all who treasure and respect these amazing time capsules:

            Rhode Island

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