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We have seen good evidence that the Western Stemmed points found at Cooper's Ferry are Pre-Clovis. I know that Steve is convinced that the SS points are Pre-Clovis. The SS points have the same general shape as the Western Stemmed points but the flaking is very different. Just look at those large serrations. Has anyone here ever seen other points that closely resemble the Sloth Slayer Points?
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Michigan Yooper
If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything -
No pics on my end . -
Thanks Dennis, I assume too much. Here are some pictures:
Western Stemmed Points from Cooper's Ferry
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The Sloth Slayer Point
Michigan Yooper
If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for AnythingComment
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Stuart Fidel, a Senior Archeologist at the Louis Berger group revisited Cooper's Ferry and had much to say about this supposedly pre-clovis site. He wrote an extensive paper on it questioning much of what had been done there. These points found at the site according to Fidel were Lind Coulee type and NOT
a pre-clovis type.
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I will say this all the years i grew up hunting points in the Pacific northwest i found quite a few stemmed points but none were ever serrated like coryell's.WyomingComment
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I've always thought the Boggy Branch type I reassembled the SS. I realize the BB is only found in a small area in the South East.Central OhioComment
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Been looking at western stemmed all day now, this is crazy fun for me. Bases look to made in totally different ways too. Although the sample size is small to me its like a person who had seen a western stemmed (particularly Alberta) made some in the way he/she knew how.
I know Im new to napping, but I do haft almost all I make. I saw it mentioned on the link posted from 2014, something different about those bases on the sloth slayers. Thats way more then you need for close pin and beveled rods wouldn't workComment
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Interesting topic, I too have wondered about any associated types to the SS points found by Garscale. Yesterday when Brett mentioned Coryell, it peaked my interest because I was not familiar with the type. I had wondered if the SS might have been a regional variation of a known type, were the flaking varies. We see that some times with other types that encompass a large geographic area. If I remember correctly Garscale was adamant about there occurrence at lower levels than dated Paleo types right above the hard pan.
It's an interesting conversation, even though the occurrence of stemmed pre Clovis types is well documented as you displayed above.
Josh (Ky/Tn collector)Comment
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Ron,
In the other thread I mentioned the similarities, I guess I meant general similarities. Stemmed and serrated, which are very non-Clovis like traits. The Sloth Slayers are a different beast that most early paleo points. But the Cooper's Ferry points are also really distinct from most Great Basin Western Stemmed Points.
I know a couple of great Texas Archaeologists that think they are just beefy Coryell points, which are solidly Archaic in Central Texas. Another Archaeologist thinks they are more related to Ozark regional types like Rice and Searcy, also Archaic points. East Texas variations from Central Texas can be quite different, simply because the lithic resources are very different. Often that results in smaller, thicker points. But with some paleo and early archaic points the results are the opposite, they used imported materials and points tend to be very high quality. On the opposite side of Texas where JJ hunts, you occasionally get some Bajada, Jay and other stemmed, serrated points. (Not identical, but something along the same vein.)
For anything to be recognized as a true pre-Clovis type, it's going to take a bit more than our forums and a couple of COA issuers calling something a valid type. Many sites, with some of the highest caliber research and archaeologists involved, were dismissed for decades before they were generally accepted by the Archaeological community.
Joshua
Hong Kong, but from Indiana/FloridaComment
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Thanks Joshua, I remember Steve saying that he left an area untouched so it could later be scientifically investigated. I also remember him saying that he had offered to have archeologists involved in the dig but they were not interested until they later saw what he was recovering. I wish Steve was still here for an update.
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Killer pointComment
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I love the impact fracture on the SS pointComment
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Ron I've tried to contact Steve several times. To no avail. I live only 30 min. away from him. Maybe someday he will show back up.east Tx.Comment
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Hello Gentlemen, I know this is an old discussion but I have been reading a lot about the archeological excavations at supposedly pre clovis sites. In particular the Cooper's Ferry Site. This site was revisited in 2020 and was documented in a paper by Stuart Fiedel , a Senior Archeologist at the Louis Berger Group. The site as a whole was found to be extensively disturbed by rodents and mammals.
The Western Stemmed points that were found there were Lind Coulee points. He has documented a compelling paper on the site not being a so called pre clovis site. Search for Cooper's Ferry Revisited in response to "The Pre-Clovis Peoples" September 2020. It is a good , fascinating read from a noted Senior Archeologist.Comment
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hey guys. I know little about the cooper's ferry dig but have read extensively about it. TAMU recently dug on a site adjoining the Gault site and documented points pre Clovis and likely associated to Western Stemmed traditions. My guess is that my SS points are related to western stemmed. I am certain they are not archaic.
I won't name assertions I can't defend but I will say I dug them as much as 2ft into the clay and below all other varieties of paleo. They are a cool point.Comment
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