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  • #16
    Strange thing about some drills I have observed they lack use wear. If a drill is made and used to drill another stone it blunts the sharp edges of the drill tip in a hurry. Pre cell phone I did some experiments for my own benefit. The drill I used to drill holes in slate lost its edges at the tip. It became vey blunted and dull and it did not take much to get that way. I did not use a pump drill or a bow drill I just mounted the flint drill to a shaft and used my palms to rotate along with and downward force. This experiment makes me think that a lot of what we assume are drills were actually expended knives.
    Last edited by Hoss; 01-14-2021, 12:18 AM.
    TN formerly CT Visit our store http://stores.arrowheads.com/store.p...m-Trading-Post

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    • antmike915
      antmike915 commented
      Editing a comment
      Excellent post Hoss

    • tomf
      tomf commented
      Editing a comment
      Could some blunts be expended drills?

  • #17
    Nice collection. I think that they would not have stunned larger animals definitely not predators , wolves , bears ect , wild dogs . They would have reached for something more lethal out of their quiver ect. I think the stunner use was a benefit for being able to be reused over and over . Would work great on all small varmints and critters. Think would be great in saving those G10’s on a big buck instead of wasting on a squirrel 40’ up in a tree.

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    • antmike915
      antmike915 commented
      Editing a comment
      I agree Sgt. If they were used in that fashion definitely on very small animals.

  • #18
    I hear you Hoss. My opinion is what I've read and told. That the drilling was accomplished more or less with sand. And that's how the tip gets so rounded. I have a few that are so round it's obvious that were drills. Sand drilling has been done by using a simple reed with sand. It's been proven but it takes a lot of reeds. My belief is most drill types are perforators.
    Knowledge is about how and where to find more Knowledge. Snyder County Pa.

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    • #19
      [QUOTE=antmike915;n523874]I started this after reading a previous thread regarding hafted scrapers, and the theories about blunts, stunners and possible broken blades converted into hafted scrapers, ect... because I think it's a great subject to talk about.
      Thank you Ant for continuing the thread. I don't buy the stunner theory either. Very good presentation. Better than I could do. Great examples too. Kim
      Knowledge is about how and where to find more Knowledge. Snyder County Pa.

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      • antmike915
        antmike915 commented
        Editing a comment
        Thanks Kim, I'm glad you brought it up. A very good topic to discuss.

    • #20
      Hi Mike. I like your photos. They are excellent quality. As far as some of the individual points you show being originally made as knives. Who knows for sure? You don't and I don't. There is no way to tell because as I have said in other threads the same halfing technique often was used to attach points regardless of the tool . But what does it matter anyway? The fact is that most scrapers were made intentionally and not as a result of having to wait till a kniife broke before having one or a few in their tool kit. Also, some of these rounded tip "scrapers" with sharp edges were likely used as knives. A knife does not need to have a sharp point in order to cut. Actually sometimes a sharp tip is not desired. If you are familiar with the Eskimo ulu knife then you know what I mean. If you have ever fleshed out a large game animal hide then you know that early in the process a lot of cutting has to be done before any final scraping and one does not want a tip sharp enough to pierce the hide. So having said that, I believe the point in the 2nd pic is or may be a knife. BTW, I am glad you described your experience working with animals. If that does not put to rest the idea about stunners then nothing can help some folks. Regarding drills? Same thing goes as for scrapers. So some drills had bases similar to knives and some had no bases. Again, it has to do with how they were halfted. Also some of the points that some folks call drills were likely perforators.

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      • Ron Kelley
        Ron Kelley commented
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        Good points Joe. I posted my modern skinning knife below.

      • antmike915
        antmike915 commented
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        Excellent post joe; thank you.

    • #21
      Here is my modern skinning knife:
      Click image for larger version

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      Michigan Yooper
      If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything

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      • sailorjoe
        sailorjoe commented
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        Hi Ron. A great modern day example which well illustrates what I was trying to say. Thanks for showing us. I've skinned lots of deer, caribou and moose and sometimes wished I had one. I just had to be real careful with my Buck folding hunter when it got down to the details of fleshing if I wanted to save the hide which was not often.

    • #22
      On a note about butchering tools, my friend Jim Herbstritt and some students completely butchered a deer using only tools that he made on the spot. Burks County Jasper was the material he used. It took them about 45 minutes!
      Knowledge is about how and where to find more Knowledge. Snyder County Pa.

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      • sailorjoe
        sailorjoe commented
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        Thanks Kim for that anecdote. A few years ago one of our members posted a thread in which he showed how he did this using only tools made of chert. As you no doubt know, a sliver or chert is just as sharp as a surgeons scalpel. I'm not a knapper but I can attest that from my experience.

    • #23
      Hay Sailor I saw a video where an eye surgeon used small flakes of Obsidian configured into an eye scalpel. He said it is even sharper than any machine can make to do eye surgery.
      Knowledge is about how and where to find more Knowledge. Snyder County Pa.

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      • #24
        As a rural NewJersey kid growing up, I was not allowed to have a gun. My mom wouldn't hear of it and the over protective laws are so ridiculous, that it wasn't an option for me. So, I got to be a crack shot with a slingshot and a bow.
        It only took one time of both my arrow and dead squirrel both being up stuck a tree, before I realized I need to do something different. I started fastening spent brass cartridge casings over the tip of my arrows. With a well aimed hit from my 30 lb. Bear Recurve, I would break their spine at the very least and the arrow didn't hang up. Both the .65 cent arrow and squirrel fell separately.
        Not an expert in lithics manufacturing, but maybe some blunts were more than just hafted tools.
        FGH Check out my artifact store at Lone Star Artifact Reclaim

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        • SGT.Digger
          SGT.Digger commented
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          Would be good as target 🎯 arrow too . So the youngsters could practice. I of course let my son only use target arrows until he gets good with his bow then he can upgrade . It’s practical IMOP to have stunners,blunts,target points ect or whatever you want to call them.

      • #25
        In the Amazon, some tribes use wooden blunts for hunting birds. It has a round cone shape to the head and skinny forshaft tapering to a point for inserting in a reed shaft. I used to have one a Ashanika friend gave me. Not sure if I still have it.
        South Carolina

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        • antmike915
          antmike915 commented
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          If you find it take a pic and post it, would be cool to see.

      • #26
        Click image for larger version

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        Here's a drill, hairpin or something else that was the original design, nothing else. Made from a tabular slab of Upper Mercer. It's about 2.5 inches long. It's an old photo with no scale. The rusty end on the left is the original ancient unflaked surface.

        Attached Files

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        • antmike915
          antmike915 commented
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          Cool artifact Stans

      • #27
        Interesting conversation. On this first piece, the rather minuscule proportions of the base is telling me this was made as is, and from scratch. Dr. Gramly felt it was a “drill” in the Dalton-related family. It did come off a very Early Archaic site, so I guess he may be right. The tip does appear quite blunted from use....

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        Click image for larger version

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        This appears to be a drill or perforator, and Is a salvaged Fox Creek point....

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        And finally, this appears to be a Susquehanna related point, and I can see this as a resharpened knife, though I’m not certain. Always thought of it as a point salvaged as a drill, but I can see it as a knife....

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        Last edited by CMD; 02-12-2021, 11:13 AM.
        Rhode Island

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        • antmike915
          antmike915 commented
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          The 2nd one is killer

      • #28
        I feel this is aimed at me 🤔🤫😂

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        • antmike915
          antmike915 commented
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          Nah, but feel free to jump in the debate.

      • #29
        Originally posted by Lone Star View Post
        As a rural NewJersey kid growing up, I was not allowed to have a gun. My mom wouldn't hear of it and the over protective laws are so ridiculous, that it wasn't an option for me. So, I got to be a crack shot with a slingshot and a bow.
        It only took one time of both my arrow and dead squirrel both being up stuck a tree, before I realized I need to do something different. I started fastening spent brass cartridge casings over the tip of my arrows. With a well aimed hit from my 30 lb. Bear Recurve, I would break their spine at the very least and the arrow didn't hang up. Both the .65 cent arrow and squirrel fell separately.
        Not an expert in lithics manufacturing, but maybe some blunts were more than just hafted tools.
        My mom was the same way Lone Star, I never had a gun (not even a BB gun)and too this day I still don't. I was like you with a sling shot and I became very good at throwing rocks at targets as well. I only had one slingshot and once the band broke that was it. After that happened I practiced more on throwing rocks at targets, which I became good at. With a good throw I actually took out a few birds, squirrels, opossums and coons. I've always thought that could have been a method the ancients used for small game; especially before the bow was invented.
        🐜 🎤 SW Georgia

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        • SGT.Digger
          SGT.Digger commented
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          I firmly believe they used rocks 🪨 in many situations. Why waste an arrow or point if a rock or throwing stick could do the job . I had a major league arm and could throw a missile 100yards but after I torn my rotator (still torn) I’ve been a bump on a log 🪵. I’m sure they could run down their Dinner too

      • #30
        When I found my first blunt point/ hafted scraper I asked around and what an old timer told me was it was used on small game such as squirrels and rabbits because there already isn't much meat and you lose a lot of the meat with a point, of course it wouldn't be effective on say a wolf other than making it want to eat you more. And it just made sense to me. But I wasnt there so I cant say for sure either way

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        • CMD
          CMD commented
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          That’s why they were called “blunts”, or “stunners”, but that interpretation was based more on the imagination. What’s called for is usage wear analysis, something I am not very good at, but, usage wear analysis would usually determine a “blunt” was either used as a knife, or a scraper. I’m guessing earlier collectors never bothered to examine these tools close enough to determine how they were used.
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