estimate age and rarity?

[11KBP]

painshill wrote:


The premaxilla looks to be broken off in Brett’s skull (a side view – both sides – would help establish how much of it remains and whether a gap is discernible), so it’s inconclusive unless the skull dimensions take it outside the range for cattle but the rostrum looks broad enough to be bison. Jay’s skull shows the gap pretty clearly (even though the rostrum is much less broad) and would show it even more clearly in side view I think.
(PS: when we’re done here, I will move this thread to “Fossils, Paleontology -and- Old Bones”).

  so it’s inconclusive
So is it a bison skull or a cow skull?

[painshill]

[QUOTE]11KBP wrote:

The premaxilla looks to be broken off in Brett’s skull (a side view – both sides – would help establish how much of it remains and whether a gap is discernible), so it’s inconclusive unless the skull dimensions take it outside the range for cattle but the rostrum looks broad enough to be bison. Jay’s skull shows the gap pretty clearly (even though the rostrum is much less broad) and would show it even more clearly in side view I think.
(PS: when we’re done here, I will move this thread to “Fossils, Paleontology -and- Old Bones”).

  so it’s inconclusive
So is it a bison skull or a cow skull?
"Inconclusive" means you can't be sure. The base of the horns looks thick, the curvature of the tips moderate at best and the rostrum very broad... but the key diagnostic feature of the skull is missing. Also no teeth to help us. Without some precise dimensions (the picture doesn't give us those) it's not possible to say if it falls outside the expected range for cattle.

[11KBP]

[QUOTE]painshill wrote:

[quote=11KBP post=110366]

The premaxilla looks to be broken off in Brett’s skull (a side view – both sides – would help establish how much of it remains and whether a gap is discernible), so it’s inconclusive unless the skull dimensions take it outside the range for cattle but the rostrum looks broad enough to be bison. Jay’s skull shows the gap pretty clearly (even though the rostrum is much less broad) and would show it even more clearly in side view I think.
(PS: when we’re done here, I will move this thread to “Fossils, Paleontology -and- Old Bones”).

  so it’s inconclusive
So is it a bison skull or a cow skull?
"Inconclusive" means you can't be sure. The base of the horns looks thick, the curvature of the tips moderate at best and the rostrum very broad... but the key diagnostic feature of the skull is missing. Also no teeth to help us. Without some precise dimensions (the picture doesn't give us those) it's not possible to say if it falls outside the expected range for cattle.
  I'm sure of my answer Roger.
I answered the question using approximately five decades of Central Great Plains experience hunting/finding/identifying this kind of stuff. If you want to google stuff up a half a world away and tap dance around without answering the specific questions of what it is and how rare is it then the rest of us may as well move on …which I intend to do.

[painshill]

[QUOTE]11KBP wrote:

[quote=painshill post=110367][quote=11KBP post=110366]

The premaxilla looks to be broken off in Brett’s skull (a side view – both sides – would help establish how much of it remains and whether a gap is discernible), so it’s inconclusive unless the skull dimensions take it outside the range for cattle but the rostrum looks broad enough to be bison. Jay’s skull shows the gap pretty clearly (even though the rostrum is much less broad) and would show it even more clearly in side view I think.
(PS: when we’re done here, I will move this thread to “Fossils, Paleontology -and- Old Bones”).

  so it’s inconclusive
So is it a bison skull or a cow skull?
"Inconclusive" means you can't be sure. The base of the horns looks thick, the curvature of the tips moderate at best and the rostrum very broad... but the key diagnostic feature of the skull is missing. Also no teeth to help us. Without some precise dimensions (the picture doesn't give us those) it's not possible to say if it falls outside the expected range for cattle.
  I'm sure of my answer Roger.
I answered the question using approximately five decades of Central Great Plains experience hunting/finding/identifying this kind of stuff. If you want to google stuff up a half a world away and tap dance around without answering the specific questions of what it is and how rare is it then the rest of us may as well move on …which I intend to do.
  Good.  I'm glad you're sure of your answer. I'm equally sure of the diagnostic features required to be sure when we have nothing more than a couple of pictures without any dimensions.
I'm not "tap-dancing around" as you put it and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Diagnostics is an evidence-based science and the evidence presented does not represent certainty. If you want to just look and give an opinion based on that... feel free and I'll move on.

[painshill]

Although that third pic tells us the key diagnostic of the premaxilla is broken away, it does actually add to the story. I would stress again that the overlaps in morphology between cattle and bison skulls are such that you really do need something more diagnostic than just looking and saying “I’m sure” without saying why.
I consulted an artiodactyl bone expert and shared those pictures with him. What he had to say was rather interesting. Apparently, the other good differentiator between Bison and Bos (cattle) skulls is the degree to which the orbits (eye sockets) of the skull protrude in dorsal view. Although the orbits on that skull protrude a long way, diagnosis is less about the absolute dimensions and more about whether they protrude far enough to obscure the zygomatic arches (essentially represented by the cheek bones). From the first two pictures posted (when 11KBP made his confident diagnosis), it’s not actually possible to see if the zygomatic arches are still present, or whether they have broken away with the other underlying skull bones. You need a side view to see whether or not that is the case and we didn’t have that until the later post of the third pic.
His opinion was that since the third pic shows the zygomatics are intact (at least on the right side of the skull), but do not extend far enough to be visible in dorsal view (ie from the top of the skull) then “the best ID would be Bison” and “we are probably in the 95% confidence range”. He added that the orbital diagnostic came from work by Stan Olsen (one of the founding figures of zooarchaeology in the United States) many years ago and he didn’t know if it had been tested against larger samples of skulls… but that personally, he had not seen cattle skull with the same degree of protusion.
Those are evidence-based views for which I have considerable respect but it’s interesting that his confidence was raised by a particular diagnostic feature that was only visible after the final picture was posted.

[11KBP]

painshill wrote:

Although that third pic tells us the key diagnostic of the premaxilla is broken away, it does actually add to the story. I would stress again that the overlaps in morphology between cattle and bison skulls are such that you really do need something more diagnostic than just looking and saying “I’m sure” without saying why.
I consulted an artiodactyl bone expert and shared those pictures with him.

  Painshill wrote:


“I consulted an artiodactyl bone expert and shared those pictures with him.”
That seems to be a questionable opinion from your “expert” as he is referring to someone else’s reference from many years ago rather than his own hands-on experience in bison skull studies. Interestingly he did admit that he  “didn’t know if it had been tested against larger samples of skulls”. Just how many actual bison skulls has your “expert” handled/studied?
I sent only the first two images and not the third one to the collections manager of the division of paleontology at the University of Nebraska which has one of the finest bison data bases in North America.
This is his statement:
“This is a perfectly good Bison skull. Domestic cattle (Bos) horns are at the extreme rear of the skull and often are actually situated to the rear of the occipital bone. Also the frontal bones are much narrower in Bos and in many cases somewhat concave. You have conclusive evidence, no doubt about it!”
A second set of images was sent to an acquaintance that has a doctorate and is a vertebrate paleontologist with a background in archeology with a focus on bison. The third image was not sent since your “expert” claims it is the decisive image and the only key to a near positive ID.
The second reply I received concerning the skull ID was as follows:
“Yes, that is bison, no doubt in my mind. Very conspicuous triangular head is a dead giveaway, pronounced protrusion of the orbits and a strong taper of the horn cores.”
Painshill wrote:

"Diagnostics is an evidence-based science and the evidence presented does not represent certainty."
According to my professional sources the evidence provided in the first two images is quite adequate.
Pains, wrote:

“you really do need something more diagnostic than just looking and saying “I’m sure” without saying why.”
Really? It was a short direct question by the poster and I provided a short correct answer.  I do not feel an encyclopedic answer is necessary to every poster’s question. Additional information is fine …if it’s valid. Since you can sit half a world away and tell me my reply was inadequate because the images do not provide conclusive evidence (when they do) then there is no need for me to participate in your forum.

[painshill]

The expert I consulted is a working professional vertebrate palaeontologist specialising in artiodactyl bones, with a long, distinguished career and the author of many journal papers. He's also the Director of the International Wildlife Museum in Tucson, Arizona and moderates the 'skullcollecting' forum. He kindly trawled his memory and experience of bos/bison bones (which is considerable). In quoting the Olsen reference source, he was simply stating the fact that it's an often overlooked diagnostic which is useful when the lower skull bones are absent but that Olsen's original work has not been revisited in recent times against larger samples of skulls. Good enough for you?

[Jakestircrazzy]

Can anyone help me with this piece it was found in a small river in ida county,is horn core tip to tip is 27 in.across its head is little over 12 inches

[Jakestircrazzy]

Here's another pic and sorry the state I left out is iowa

[Okie1]

I don’t know but you jumped on a post that’s 5yrs old so you’re probably not going to get any help.

[Jakestircrazzy]

Ya first timer didn't know what i doing ...was just pushing buttons lol ....thank for bringing it to my attention