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All Hoarded Up: When Good Detectorists Go Bad?

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  • All Hoarded Up: When Good Detectorists Go Bad?


    Or a simple case of finders, keepers? Seems to be a lot of speculation here as to what the unseen hoard's financial and historical significance may have been, but I don't see anything that was offered to the detectorists in exchange for their found prize.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...ester-50461860

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    If the women don\'t find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.

  • #2
    I don't know anything about detecting or laws regarding finds, especially foreign laws, but seems these guys also bypassed the land owner.

    Comment


    • Cecilia
      Cecilia commented
      Editing a comment
      I figure mighta had permission to detect, but maybe had obligation to inform...?

    • Olden
      Olden commented
      Editing a comment
      I think they should of included the land owner, but still wouldn't be any guarantee that the entire size of the find would be reported.

  • #3
    I'm unsure what you mean by "I don't see anything that was offered up in exchange for their found prize".
    What I see is the implied lowering of the incarceration time period.
    These folks tried to defraud the farmer, the government and the populace by selling the undisclosed tresure on the black market. They deserve to be locked up for a long, long time!!!
    Bruce
    In life there are losers and finders. Which one are you?

    Comment


    • Olden
      Olden commented
      Editing a comment
      Bruce:
      I'm unsure what you mean by "I don't see anything that was offered up in exchange for their found prize".

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

      In the UK the find is appraised, and if it's deemed 'significant' the state (for lack of a better word) offers you a purchase settlement. There's no mention of the 'states' offer, seems like they're being tried in the press.

  • #4
    Originally posted by 2ndoldman View Post
    I'm unsure what you mean by "I don't see anything that was offered up in exchange for their found prize".
    What I see is the implied lowering of the incarceration time period.
    These folks tried to defraud the farmer, the government and the populace by selling the undisclosed tresure on the black market. They deserve to be locked up for a long, long time!!!
    Completely agree, Bruce.

    The law here is very clear and these guys knew full well they were breaking it, as well as trying to cheat the landowner. Finds of this type must be reported to a local coroner within 14 days of their discovery. An inquest led by the coroner then determines whether the finds are classed as “treasure”.

    Two or more precious metal coins found together that are at least 300 years old; or 10 or more coins containing less than 10% gold or silver that are at least 300 years old; or two or more prehistoric base metal artefacts in association with one another; or an artefact at least 300 years old containing at least 10% gold or silver; or items made substantially from gold or silver that are less than 300 years old judged to have been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovery but where there is no prospect of tracing the original owner or their heirs would usually be classed as “treasure”.

    If the items are classed as treasure, a panel of experts would then determine their value based on a fair market price as might be agreed between a willing seller and a willing buyer… not what price might be realised in a competitive auction. The museum services then have first refusal on acquiring at that price, with the money going to the finder/landowner as a reward. If the museum services decline to acquire the items or cannot raise the required funds within a specific deadline then the items become the property of the finder/landowner and it’s up to them what they want to do with them.

    Usually, metal detectorists here seek landowner permission via a proforma agreement that specifies a 50:50 split. If there is no agreement then the court will determine the split of reward or ownership between finder and landowner.

    Any monies received above £11,700 per person are liable for Capital Gains Tax at 10%, rising to 20% for higher rate taxpayers.
    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

    Comment


    • #5
      I wrote this down as a comment originally.


      Metal detecting is my favorite hobby...when I'm not finding nails. It all matters on how you do it, where you record your information, how you record it, permission, photographs, mapping etc. I hate when it is misused as nothing more than treasure hunting for sale.

      That being said, I've been attacked online (not on here of course) by anti-detectorists, falsely accusing me of digging up artifacts from Gettysburg, (I was there once - when I was ten and didn't know what detecting was), and stealing from private property, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, mostly, because I detect with a group in Virginia, and on my own place. Detectorists get a pretty bad rap some days. Sometimes it is deserving, but 9/10, it is not deserved.




      But come to think of it, that's what some say about arrowhead and artifact collectors. We get a bad rap in the public eye as tomb robbers, and burial ground raiders just for some precious flint. It's time that hobbyists like us, stand together and stop this mentality from being painted on all of us, just because of a few bad eggs.
      "The education of a man is never completed until he dies." Robert E. Lee

      Comment


      • Cecilia
        Cecilia commented
        Editing a comment
        Detected once long time ago, found some kind of incredible metal lumpish rock (copper?). Was hooked, then as adult lost BIG ole diamond at beach, looked for days w/detector. But, alas.... never detected nor wore jewelry again!

    • #6
      At court today, Powell was jailed for ten years and Davies was jailed for eight and a half years. Their accomplice Wicks (who had previous convictions for ‘night-hawking’, which is illicit metal-detecting) was jailed for five years. The other accomplice, Wells, claimed to have been taken ill yesterday, didn't appear in court today, and will be sentenced at a later date.

      If Powell and Davies had properly declared their finds they could have jointly expected either a half or a third share of a £3 million valuation (the farmer was a tenant, so the reward might have been divided equally between finders/farmer/landowner). At worst, Powell and Davies would have got £500,000 each and at best £750,000 each.
      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

      Comment


      • Cecilia
        Cecilia commented
        Editing a comment
        Pain, I had British friend who worked as private artifact recover-er, and one of her contracts was with a branch of your government. She was like a secret agent to me, and was quite successful recovering artwork taken from Jewish families by Third Reich. This was only about 10 years ago, so perhaps her talents will be tapped here. I was inadvertently quite callous regarding Garrett Williams’ distress because I have a hard time assigning monetary value to artifacts. I’ve always been slightly oblivious regarding the “sordid topic of coin”, and most assuredly, I have suffered for it. Clumsy, loud American female offers sincerest apology.

      • painshill
        painshill commented
        Editing a comment
        No probs. Of course the news reports always play up the monetary side of things, but the money is really only relevant in the context of who has been cheated out of what by the unscrupulous greed of these guys.

        Williams’ distress transcends the monetary issues. Troves and caches like this yield information which is invaluable to archaeologists and historians. We get to learn more about things like where metals were mined; advancements in metallurgical skills and technologies; economic structure and stability; allegiances and trading relationships (one of the coins was from Persia, for example); battles, revolts and uprisings; and religious attitudes among other things. Coins often have mint marks that tell us exactly where and when they were produced and can narrow down the date ranges for particular events. Sometimes they have depictions or inscriptions that relate to leaders and rulers whose existence was previously unknown or only mentioned in texts that may or may not be myth and legend. You can’t put a price on this kind of information.

      • Cecilia
        Cecilia commented
        Editing a comment
        Well, you’ve straightened me out! (I did offer caveat re combination ignorance and nonchalance ....)
        I do have faith that since now freed from oblivion, dispersed artifacts will come together again...
        Last edited by Cecilia; 11-22-2019, 04:40 PM.

    • #7
      Thank you for the update Roger, it is good to know that they have actually been sentenced. Hopefully someone will be able to point out the whereabouts of the rest of the hoard before they are let out of prison.
      Bruce
      In life there are losers and finders. Which one are you?

      Comment


      • #8
        I seem to recall a similar story some years back. Bruce I believe I contacted you about it. To make a long story short a detectorist in England had permission to search a sheep farmers pastures. He was searching around an old stone bridge in a pasture and unearthed some gold jewelry. It turned out he had stumbled upon a kings ransom that had been buried for centuries. They went through the proper legal procedures though. Painshill maybe you can shed some light on that story ?
        The chase is better than the catch...
        I'm Frank and I'm from the flatlands of N'Eastern Illinois...

        Comment


      • #9
        Thanks Painshill. I'm pretty sure it was the Staffordshire hoard. Looking at it online is stunning enough but to see it in person had to be breathtaking. If anyone knew about that I figured you would. Thanks for the link.
        The chase is better than the catch...
        I'm Frank and I'm from the flatlands of N'Eastern Illinois...

        Comment

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