Cooked Jasper Vs Raw Jasper?

[-=METACOM=-]

Hello,

Question about Jasper. Does red always mean cooked? If jasper also comes in red naturally is there a way to tell between natural red jasper or jasper that turned red due to cooking?

Can you tell me if this red scraper is cooked or raw?

[Scorpion68]

Don't know much about Jasper and heat treating changes Meta but I sure like that color. Something like that would make a beautiful point.

[G10+]

Not real familiar with jasper ain't non around my parts ... I do know that it fools me though when I do see it because I want to say it's heat treated and it's really not

[tomclark]

I think jasper would change color if heat treated. .
My experience with small (KILLER!!!) tools like yours is that they are more often not heat treated. The material for a tool needs to be more durable than workable. Jasper occurs in colors reddish, yellow, brown, even green, blue and black.... and the red containing a good bit of iron would definitely change color. Somebody cook some to see I wanna know, too lol. Cryptocrystalline quartz, knappable minerals. There are two types: Fibrous and Granular. Fibrous types are chalcedony, carnelian, agate, onyx.. Jasper is a Granular variety along with chert.

Real nice patina difference on the bottom (used) compared to top on that one.

[CMD]

Well, here's some various shades from RI. In the first two photos, the tiny broken Jack's Reef is definetly cooked. There's a fire pop on the other side, and the whole thing has been in a fire. The other piece in the first two photos is kind of a mix of brown/red/yellow, and all natural color, not in a fire. In the third photo, the red in the mottled piece and in the tiny flake pentagonal might be from heat, you be the judge. The tiniest piece in third photo is a red/maroon shade and natural color. Last longest piece is the typical brown jasper that is the most common shade hereabouts. The brown and yellow jaspers could be sourced from Pa., or possibly RI. RI and Pa. jasper cannot be distinguished by sight. The last photo is black jasper.

[-=METACOM=-]

Black jasper... well that's a new one for me and I like that a lot. That Jack's Reef is awesome by the way. I didn't realize jasper could take on all those different looks... I'd have to say my red scraper is raw looking at what you have there.

[pkfrey]

It depends on where the jasper is from. I can speak for Pa. jasper, but the tool your showing looks like jasper from farther south. In Pa., there isn't any natural red jasper. Any red jasper found in Pa. was heat treated which enhances the iron content, and hardens the point for knapping. Very often a solid red artifact is found in Pa., and always thought to be jasper. But a lot of these turn out to be Munsungen chert, glacial cobble cherts, or a variety of odd red chert, and not jasper at all. What part of the country is the scraper from? When making a point from heat treated jasper, the reddened color is usually flaked off, exposing the original brownish/yellow ( or similar color ). Sometimes the tip, basal corners, and shoulder area will remain red. I don't think your tool was heat treated, it appears to be the natural color. P.S. Charlie, In your photos, the smaller piece with a little black in it is Munsungen from up your way. It will often be found as solid maroon, solid striated black/gray, or mixed in the same artifact. Attch'd. is what many collectors down here call red jasper. It's actually a Munsungen chert Perkiomen. Sorry, the photo came out blurred for some reason. my photography really stinks!

[-=METACOM=-]

Nice point by the way. I think the key to a good artifact photo is lots of sunlight. When I take them indoors I just can't seem to get a sharp photo.

[CMD]

Thanks, Paul. Nice to actually know I have any Munsungin, actually sourced at quite a distance from where I hunt in RI. I'll bet I have more as well, and never realized it....

[-=METACOM=-]

No red jasper in PA at all? So assuming mine isn't cooked, it would had to have to come from the Limerock RI source???

[pkfrey]

That's very possible. It doesn't look like Pa. jasper. It looks closer to the jasper in Charlie's photo, the larger piece with the red mottling. I know I haven't seen every single piece of the billions of jasper pieces and flakes, but I'm pretty consistent when picking out Pa. jasper vs. jasper from out of our area.

[CMD]

By the way, METACOM's scraper is either from Ma. or RI....

[CMD]

No red jasper in PA at all? So assuming mine isn't cooked, it would had to have to come from the Limerock RI source???

I just looked through the lithics section in Boudreau's expanded typology. He shows some Munsungun chert from Maine that looks like the color in your scraper. Maybe Paul can say if he has seen Munsungun that shade. Boudreau says it ranges from black to brown to green, but, just as Paul indicated, the best known being deep red to maroon, according to Boudreau.

The only other lithic that Boudreau illustrates that it might be is Saugus Jasper, found in outcrops north of Boston. It is deep red on fresh surfaces, but patinated surfaces are often pink with creamy random banding. He does show a Levanna that is deep red. But, Saugus Jasper is actually a type of rhyolite, it's not really jasper at all. Nonetheless, it's known by that name.

Here are two piece of Saugus "Jasper". The one has patination. The small triangle, one of our RI finds, is red. Both have the creamy banding that Boudreau describes.

Right now, based on the many pieces Boudreau illustrates, your piece looks most like Munsungun to me. He shows pieces that match the shade of your piece.

I am going to show you more jasper in a bit. I do not think red jasper is found at Limerock, RI. I know brown and yellow is found there, and you can't distinguish it, by eyeball alone, from Pa. jaspers of the same shade....

OK, first pic is natural light, and second pic is artificial light. Saugus "Jasper":

[CMD]

Although I like the match with reddish Munsungun, it could very well be like the larger red mottled piece in my first post, as Paul suggested. I agree with Paul that your piece looks like my piece as well. It could be from Limerock, but I've only heard of brown and yellow from Limerock. If I find out otherwise, I'll let you know....

[CMD]

Some more jasper from RI sites.

Photo 1 and 2 are natural light.
Photo 3 and 4 are artificial light.
Photo 5 natural light.
Photo 6 artificial light.
Photo 7, the smallest piece in photos 5 and 6, backlit with chalcedony veins.
Photo 8, two tone in artificial light.

[-=METACOM=-]

Really interesting info. Never heard of Munsungin but I'd say its a good candidate. My scraper looks similar to the Jasper in your last post Charlie but I can't say it looks exactly like it... Can't wait to get my hands on that guide.

[pkfrey]

Don't forget my alternative source. If the colors don't match up to known sources, then the tool could be an example of cobble chert. These cobbles were dragged down with the glaciers, and as the glaciers receded, the cobbles were left behind. If one was found and proved to be a type chert suitable for tool making, then it would have been used. And in this scenario, you will not find an exact source for the material, and very often the cobble could have been a one of kind chert that was used, and we rack our brains out trying to find out where it was from. More than one tool, or one piece, should be found on a given site to qualify for being originating from a known quarry source, or a simple outcrop. And also don't forget, many of the known cherts and flints came from small outcrops that were so extensively used and depleted, they don't exist today, or they have been destroyed. There's also a source of red jasper near Colchester, Vt., and the source there is made up of mostly glacial cobble debris found in a stratified deposit. Munsungun won't normally exhibit a high degree of polish, even when highly patinated. It takes on a somewhat duller, shale like appearance. So, in summary, I think the tool is made from a cobble source of unknown origin.. Also the small size would be more indictative of the original chunk being a cobble, vs. a larger block or slab as found at the other sources.

[CMD]

And if it is Limerock jasper, it will also show up as glacial cobbles south of the source area, probably as far south as Block Island, which is 10 miles south of the RI mainland. I posted an example of a cobble on page 2 of this thread, which is Limerock jasper, and found on the shore of Narragansett Bay perhaps 15 miles or so south of Limerock....

[chase]

The discussion has been hashed before I will say flint jasper chert are pretty much the same all silica based
the chert out west will come in a verity of colors from brown tan and red white grey and black too purple all without heat treatment the white when heat treatment will get some orange and bonds the silicate for a more uniform removal of flakes

[Shedhunter]

Mark, I have a nice piece of Jasper that I collected from the Limerock quarry that is dark maroon to brown in color. I think I've showed that one to you before. I also have a piece of beach cobble Jasper from Mount hope bay that is almost the same shade of red as your scrapper, but wherever that piece originated from is a mystery. I don't currently have any good photos of these, but I'll get a few good pictures in the natural sunlight tomorrow and post them.

[CMD]

The Limerock quarry in RI also has a red and brown colored agate that might easily be confused with jasper. If I can find any of our examples of agate that the wife and I collected when the quarry was still an open pit, and mineral collectors came from all over New England to collect on Sunday's, I'll post photos. Once the open pit became filled with water, Limerock was no longer one of the meccas of mineral collecting in the Northeast.....