I've always thought "effigy points" were white man dreams...

[Jethro355]

until I saw this. It belongs to a friend of mine, he found it as well as the other artifacts in these pics, and I was able to snap a couple quick shots of them.
Found in south central Arkansas. I believe it to be a bear? This double bit axe is is also. First one I've ever held...

[CMD]

I can't remember where, but I have seen a piece like your suggested "bear" before. Exactly like it. Where, though? Maybe among the Great Basin crescents? It's gonna bug me, that's for sure....

[poprock3898]

Awesome rocks, I have one that is not worked flint but carved polished stone, some folks say its just a rock , but a few say they see the effigy side of it. anyway ,those are awesome rocks your friend has !!

[Kyflintguy]

Any possibility your friends site is being seeded with fakes? I'm seeing issues as far as authenticity is involved with all of those items. Not saying your friend is lying to you but there are very visible red flags here, especially so with the axe and blade. The Dalton and effigy issues are more subtle but alarming nonethelesss.

[Jethro355]

Anything at all is possible. I don't know because I want there, but I do know they came from actual digging and not a surface find. *Not the dalton..

[Jethro355]

Is it the white flaky parts? Just curious because I don't know what to look for, but those caught my eye. The dalton looks just like the one Ron Kelly made me...so I was curious about it anyway...

[CMD]

It's conceivable I was thinking of the Paleo crescents found on the Channel Islands off California, some of which show protrusions off the concave edge, as seen in particular on one of the examples seen on this article describing the discovery not that many years ago:

http://westerndigs.org/ancient-seafa...fornia-island/

Actually, the protrusions are not off a concave edge. Anyway, i swear I have seen one that is the mirror image of what you are showing, but unless I can find it....

[Jethro355]

Those are stunning...

[p kurt]

CMD, I think you may be referring to a bear effigy in the Alaska section of the overstreet identification book. It looks very similar

[Kyflintguy]

Yeah those white hinge flakes really stand out, and while those are hints at the possibility of being recently produced they can be found on authentic artifacts. The most telling feature is the lack of any visible staining underneath those loose hinge flakes, coupled with the incorrect form and make for that class of artifact. Also the visible change in old patina vs the fresher knapper areas. They blade and axe both look as if they were made today. Paul would be better suited to explain all that's wrong there, I really just know enough to know there are issues.
As far as the "Dalton", its a modern interpretation of that type imo. The kind you see getting sold on eBay with junk papers. Those serrations are way overkill as compared to what you'd expect on an actual Dalton, just like something I would do myself. Lol. Pretty but modern as well.
As far as the effigy it looks like someone took an actual artifact possibly and turned it into an effigy. Just my hunch but although flint zoological effigies exist, they are extremely uncommon if I'm remembering correctly. Just my opinion, lets see if anyone else sees these the same way as me.

[Scorpion68]

Jethro - the first thing that went through my mind when seeing that effigy - was WOW - it's in beautiful shape. Then I looked at the Dalton and did a double take at the same thing Josh did. Those serrations are super sharp for being on an old Dalton point. But I'm just not that knowledgeable about authenticity to know for sure. Still - nice looking.

[Ron Kelley]

Hey Jason, It looks to my eyes like the patina was "painted" on. Better pictures would certainly help.

[Jethro355]

Ill be real honest. I’m easy AND gullible....I probably would have believed those you made me were real, even after you posted pics of them in process, if you’d have just said “lookie here what I found...”.
I am bad about taking people at their word, and that’s why I won’t buy artifacts.
😁

[Havenhunter]

I have to agree with the guys. The hinges scream modern, the serrations too defined, & the patina looks off.

[Jethro355]

I probably shouldn't have even included the dalton in the pic, as I thought it was too good to be real. Let me pose this to you, because I've seen a lot of artifacts this guy has found, and I asked him why they all were so clean, and he said he scrubs them with a tiny brass wire tooth brush and then soaks the in vinegar...and I was all 😳. He said he wants to get them clean....i just shook my head. The effigy to me looksreal and authentic. It's too imperfect...??? From my inexperienced eye, it's just hard to tell.

[Ron Kelley]

Yes that would be a terrible way to clean an artifact. That would remove the patina.

[Kyflintguy]

Brass wire and vinegar?! I've never heard of that treatment and it seems a little bit much imo. To each there own I guess and I don't know how dirty his artifacts are when he finds them. I'm a skeptical person by nature though. I've found some folks have a propensity for fibbing even when its really not nessacary. It makes my eyebrows raise to hear you say he dug them up. Just very unlikely imo. And with that being the case his extra clean artifacts sound like maybe they should be taken with a grain of salt also. Jmo.

[Jethro355]

See, this is why I love you guys. I have no idea. He’s a fairly young guy(maybe 30) and I know he does some digging, most of it work related as his dad has a small excavation business and they dig foundations and septic systems for a bunch of wealthy guys who have hunting camps in the river bottoms in central Arkansas. I know I have Roy d artifacts while trenching electrical services before, so I assume he is telling the truth. He. Ay be, but what you guys point out could be a bunch of made up crap also....

He’s not trying to sell the points or anything...he has them in frames, and brought the. To work to share with me because he knows I’m a nut about these things. Maybe he’s pulling my leg?

I thought cleaning them like that sounded crazy because the most me he get is a little wArm water...but I also tend to not judge people on whatever crazy ideas they have if they don’t affect me...

[Olden]

I can't remember where, but I have seen a piece like your suggested "bear" before. Exactly like it. Where, though? Maybe among the Great Basin crescents? It's gonna bug me, that's for sure....

California perhaps?

https://www.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25962

[CMD]

My goodness! The official California state prehistoric artifact. Thanks, Olden. Not an exact match, but my goodness, that may be the very one I was thinking of.

[Tam]

Been to the Channel Islands off Cal . My brother surfed and it was the only place left to get abalone . No people at all .
It is conceivable that an artifact could have lasted thousands of years there with mild weather . Just soft sand holding it in place . It’s what they are that is in question . Some of those Cal artifacts are fierce with the lithics and serrations , deep corner nothing becoming almost a piece of art . Google crystal lake finds .
On that Dalton the Cal points have such exaggerated
serrations .
Pick up the Overstreet book and look at Stockton for an example of squared notches and barbs .
they are over the top of the fine edged work I find in the south .
Could be reproductions but check out what I am taking about .When I go visit some friends there will be another agenda !

[Jethro355]

The Dalton is the spitting image of several I’ve seen from the Sloan site(as far as the serrations go), which is only a few miles from where he said he found that. I don’t know if it’s authentic, but if it’s not it’s not because it’s “over done”, in my opinion. Those examples found there (Sloan)are spectacular, and look too good to be real...


that bear Olden posted is a beautiful, truly spectacular artifact. Thanks for sharing that link...

[Tam]

The examples in the book look to good to be real . When I look at those Cal points and all the years I lived there and never looked .
I know I keep saying that but 50 years ago man .