Wikieup still standing

[hal9000]

Errrrr.....   
I hope I don't ruffle any feathers by pointing this out, but I'm pretty sure that after 150 years, the bottom of those posts would be buried in the plant litter and soil instead of sitting cleanly on top of it.  Also, the tree which they are perched against would have grown, changed, and moved enough to disrupt the frames in that time period.
Hunters in N. AZ build ground blinds like that every year.  They might not last a century, but a couple decades wouldn't be out of the question.

[chase]

hal9000 wrote:

Errrrr.....   
I hope I don't ruffle any feathers by pointing this out, but I'm pretty sure that after 150 years, the bottom of those posts would be buried in the plant litter and soil instead of sitting cleanly on top of it.  Also, the tree which they are perched against would have grown, changed, and moved enough to disrupt the frames in that time period.
Hunters in N. AZ build ground blinds like that every year.  They might not last a century, but a couple decades wouldn't be out of the question.

Scott, no ruffled feathers here. I first saw this 40 years ago and it has not changed. The historic artifacts that have been found in context have dated the site. These are cedar trees that most likely are 300 to 400 hundred years old.There is very little ground vegetation and has very little erosion. As far fetched, it may seam to you, this is real.Here is a bow tree from another site in the area. +

[hal9000]

Chase,
What part of CO is that?  It looks like the same mixed conifer forest that I live in (I'm in N. AZ).  I'm not an arborist, but those sure don't look like cedars to me.  They look like Junipers (intermingled with pinyon pine), which is typical for a lot of the Colorado plateau region.  Although they look similar, I was under the impression that Cedars are more of a moist climate species, and grow to much larger size than juniper.
Lack of ground vegetation or not, those trees do drop foilage and it does build up.  The same lack of rain that keeps the surface vegetation down slows decomposition.  Directly under trees like that it would be typical to find at least an inch or two of plant litter if not more and since it's constantly falling, the normal rules of superposition would apply (youngest on top). 
In addition, even though Juniper (or cedar) is one of our more durable native woods, without maintenance and with the cut/broken edge in direct contact with soil it's unlikely to last more than a couple decades before it begins to rot in earnest. Once that happens, even if the higher portions are still intact, the structure is going to sag, flex, and fall. Artifacts in proximity to something like that wouldn't be enough for me just because of how common surface artifacts are in the southwest.
None of that means that there weren't wikieups in the area, or that the rancher that said he used to see lights from campfires was incorrect.  I just need a little more before I'm convinced of their age.  If it were just a jumble of wood radiating from a central point, (or if it were down in the Sonoran desert area where it's so dry that wood just doesn't rot) I'd be inclined to believe the age, but I've seen too many similar structures over the years to view them with anything but a critical eye.
The bow tree is cool by the way.  I've seen the same thing locally a once or twice over the years and never known what it was.

[chase]

Scott, I am not here to defend this. It is not the only structure that I have found, it is the best one that is intact to some extent. The artifacts such as trade beads and metal items found in the bedding (bark) that was inside the structure leads me to believe this was infact as I stated. Juniper, Pinyon pine are correct for the type of trees for the region. It is a dry climate, with little to no humidity, which does a excellent job, with preservation. I do also posses a few wood artifacts as well. Most of the campsites are just remnants. But there are still a few that have withstood the test of time. The bow tree is from another site and is by the historic artifacts is a little older than the wiki-up. I took some pics of another campsite and have been some what remiss in putting together what I would look for when hunting in this environment. 
Here is a storage platform, or what is left.


Here is  a stump that was cut down for fire wood. or shelter material.

This is what most of the campsites look like.

A broken hammerstone, another tell tale sign that I would look for.

Here is a stake that was found in a campsite. (Not found by me but given to me from a friend)


  I have done this for many years, and know what I have seen is real.

[Ron Kelley]

Thanks Chase, Those are some very interesting pictures.
Climate surely plays a huge role in how things erode (or don't).

[hal9000]

Ron Kelley wrote:

Thanks Chase, Those are some very interesting pictures.
Climate surely plays a huge role in how things erode (or don't).

  Sure does!  We get pretty lucky in terms of artifact preservation.  Not much water transportation or soil deposition to bury or damage artifacts, and not much decomposition.  The dry climate definitely slows things down, but brown rot is still endemic and progresses non-stop (albeit at a slow pace) once the fungus enters the wood, and for the most part things lie where they fall.  That goes for branches, leaves, needles, and cones shed from trees as well as artifacts.   
Like I said, I didn't intend to start any arguments or make it sound like I'm trying to impune anyone's judgement about what they've found.  The rest of the pictures you've posted up look like what I would expect for 1800's vintage remains in our environment, but I just can't quite come all the way around to being a full believer on the first one (Doesn't mean I'm right though.  I'm ok with not being sure  ).  My biggest complaint is definitely the superposition issue.  A background in geology/sedimentology kinda predisposes me to put a lot of faith in vertical positioning of debris as an indicator of age.

[chase]

Scott, I am certainly did not post this to sway anyone into believing this structure exists. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. As I stated I first saw this over 40 years ago. At the time this would have only been a little over a 100 years. In the time that I have visited it
it is virtually unchanged in 40 years. The artifacts found in the confines of the structure, date back to the mid Circa 1800,s. the other artifacts found throughout the rest of the camp are of the same time period, with the same artifacts found. It sits sheltered in the trees thus protected from the elements. Although not shown I have other structures. Since it looks like we will be putting together a new category of Historic first contact. I will go ahead and put in the artifacts that I have found in these campsites.

[OnewiththewilD]

over here in N.E. we still have cedar fence posts standing that have been there almost 200yrs.

[Pointblank]

Chase,
I have not posted in a while but I also have come across quite a few Wikieups still standing in the Great Basin. I agree that yours look very similar to others I have seen. Your bow trees also look just like ones we have seen further out west. Most of my pictures are older Photos so I don't have them handy but there is a canyon I found many years ago with over 15 Wikieups in various stages of falling down. These are all easily in the 150 years old or older and shows how slow the decomposition is in these dry desert areas. Some of the other ones on my photos are also in much better condition that these.

[clovisoid]

There is a reason that dendrochronology (tree ring dating) is an option in the four corners states, some types of wood in some climates can last for a long time.

[chase]

Thanks to Hoss I am bringing this thread back up. He gave me this link.

http://www.archaeology.org/news/2884-150109-colorado-ute-wickiup

[sneakygroundbuzzard]

if you have every watched the show FINDING BIGFOOT ( i watch it on a regular basis,as i find it to be funny)
they find these in the woods at times,when they are doing stories out west,and they claim that the bigfoot build them as shelters  :rolf:  :rolf:

[chase]

sneakygroundbuzzard wrote:

if you have every watched the show FINDING BIGFOOT ( i watch it on a regular basis,as i find it to be funny)
they find these in the woods at times,when they are doing stories out west,and they claim that the bigfoot build them as shelters  :rolf:  :rolf:

  :rolf:  :rolf: The only BIGFOOT I ever saw was the BIGFOOT up my azz when I had done something wrong. :dunno:  :rolf: