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  • CMD
    started a topic Native America

    Native America


  • CMD
    replied
    One may, or one may not, find something of value in the extended interviews, not a part of the series as broadcast, but which are available on the PBS website. I have only listened to one of these interviews to date, so I'm really just pointing out there is more to the website then links to the episodes. There are extended interviews, as well as expanded animated sections.

    https://www.pbs.org/native-america/e...ed-interviews/

    It occurred to me recently, that, were Roger Lawrence still posting here, he would likely be the first to caution against taking mythic accounts, based in oral histories, too seriously. I believe it would affect his scientific based sensibilities. And, indeed, this series could perhaps inspire debate on differing world views, and the value different people place on different world views. But, it may also be appropriate, and it's certainly easier, to simply accept divergence of opinions on such a broad subject matter as weighing the value of world views. After all, I'm a nut, and will still talk to my crow friends, even if some call it cultural appropriation.

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  • CMD
    replied
    The United States is embedded in a larger history, encompassing the continent, and the hemisphere. And we all here know by now it extends back many thousands of years. We are just a fairly recent, really, a very recent, polity, occupying a significant % of the land area in North Ammerica. Because there is a remnant of a Puebloan culture still living in Az and NM, a fragment of that larger history continues to the present day. It's not that the so-called Anasazi were a formal part of any Mesoamerican civilized polity, but they were a part of that history, in terms of trade, and shared spiritual beliefs. You can understand history from the point of view of the conquerors, the history I was taught as a child, or the point of view of the conquered or suppressed, coming to vogue in the 70's. And numerous other perspectives told as histories. You can understand our own nation has its roots in our colonial European past, but one can also know and appreciate it is also the most recent dominant culture in a land with many stories. Whether monumental architecture, and imperial polities in Andes or Valley of Mexico, or simply small bands of humans, all are histories largely lost to Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, but it's a history still ongoing in the clash of civilization and Amazonia, for example, and simply understanding that my own time and place is part of a still evolving movement of people and impact that "began" in 1492 grounds me in a larger story. I enjoy having that perspective, regardless of how it plays with archaeologists or prehistorians.

    History can't be changed. It's in the past tense forever. But, it can be told in many different ways. That's history as written. It can change. It's the reason things from 100 years ago can appear "quaint". We see the past from the perspective of our present, not theirs. Times change, and we see the past different then our forebears did, our parents.

    So, seeing America as the latest chapter in a hemisphere wide history, with the ruins of Chaco Canyon from another age that was millennium long, yet the Hopi, and Zuni, and people of Acoma the sky city, and the Rio Grande pueblos, like an endangered species, still living remainders of a frontier zone on the periphery of Mesoamerica, that history longer then our own. It's still alive. Oraibi in Az., and Acoma, in NM, both 1000 years old. But of course there are other perspectives and people embrace the history they are most comfortable with. I like to ground my life in a mythic component. I admit it, and, after all, I have only myself to please. As an example, when a crow, or crows, show up in a field I'm walking, and carry on when I find something, I talk to them and thank them, because in the worldview of the local First Nation peoples, the crow is the creator's messenger. Thanking the crows harms nobody, is no threat to anyone else's world view, even though my wife thinks I'm nuts, but I just prefer to adopt that approach. It adds something perhaps, that is otherwise missing, having been raised in a belief system I walked away from at a young age. These are things that are obviously personal, and I don't really talk much about on an artifact forum. But, again, it enriches my life to a degree. It's like making an existential leap of faith. It did begin many years ago, with a chance encounter with the Hopi, so no surprise at all if the first chapter of this PBS series had a "full circle" effect on me.

    Maybe if I looked at the series from other perspectives, I would be disappointed? I'm not sure. I know I have no problem at all with opinions that find fault with the series. I should expect diversity of opinion, and it's not my intention to say "please confirm my whole approach to all this". Indeed, maybe I make a mistake trying to describe my approach at all. Maybe I should leave what is too personal out of any description. It's only a TV series. As far as presentations of history are concerned, I can find more fault with a show like "Ancient Aliens", which makes effort to diminish humans from their own accomplishments. That show has been running for years now, and has actually convinced many that it is truthful history. To some degree, that distresses me, but then again, in a Post Truth landscape, these perspectives enjoy a day in the sun. And perhaps I am guilty of also believing a delusion-based perspective. But, if it harms nobody else, and provides a sense of being part of a greater history, well, again, I have nobody else to please, so it's of no general import beyond myself. So, to each his or her own.

    Acoma, the Sky City, 1000 years old, and part of that longer history, that larger history, and reminding me of how much more youthful our own history and imprint on the continent is....

    Click image for larger version  Name:	E118FF29-32AD-4400-B149-E6F185B7A515-3900-000002762ED53BF6.jpeg Views:	1 Size:	209.9 KB ID:	330439
    Last edited by CMD; 11-05-2018, 10:04 AM.

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  • Kentucky point
    commented on 's reply
    A cool idea would for them to have Ron, or Jay come onto the show to make primitive things. I think the ratings would go up. :-)

  • Andy W.
    commented on 's reply
    You're right. I'm just not into mythology.

  • flintguy
    commented on 's reply
    I have to say I have been disappointed as well for similar reasons. While I value oral history, and do believe there are truths that could be taken from the stories , I would prefer a more scientific approach being taken with the series.

  • Tam
    commented on 's reply
    I studied that Ethan and hope as you do to see
    More of the plains people to the SE

  • Tam
    replied
    Different thoughts . I think most of us are such intense scientifically inclined people in our hobbies, studies and some careers that this was more legend .
    My point is and even in a college over here in Hawaii I had to write a letter to get my niece out of a legend / story telling course . She wanted something she could use in life . This is us in some ways .
    I do feel that the sensitivity of their nature beliefs / gods and spirts were the foucus . 20 % was factual and we are extremly factual and please correct me if I am wrong hench the yawning .
    What I am going to do is take some very tiny oyster shells and make some of my own beads with a quartzite hammer stone I have here in s Hawaii . ( I can see the grins )
    my 2 cents !!

    Leave a comment:


  • Kentucky point
    commented on 's reply
    I forget who was it in my family, but my great grandmother (I could be wrong) was 100% Apache. That would be cool to confirm!

  • Kentucky point
    commented on 's reply
    They always have a hidden message. Not sure what it is yet.

  • Kentucky point
    replied
    I am not a big expert into most Native American histories. I know very little about western nations and little about northern nations. I don't know if I saw any errors, because I wouldn't know what to look for. That being said, I would have liked to have seen less about South American cultures, and more about American cultures. Granted, the "Americas" are reference to both North and South America, but if you are going to name the show after America, make sure it's about America! Secondly, I would like to learn about Native American lifestyle than Solar timekeeping and sound projection from and underground tunnel. Tell us how they lived, how they hunted, how they farmed, etc. Not the other stuff.

    This being said, I liked the second episode.

    To me, this series is a good excuse to sit back and watch some TV for an hour and stop working on rocks, lol!

    Leave a comment:


  • sailorjoe
    replied
    Regarding CMD's impression of the series: I am not surprised that he gives it a "thumbs up" I am happy that he finds value in it. And there is, indeed, much of value in what I saw. On the other hand, generally, I find it lacking regarding certain facts and interpretation of some facts and a piece that seems to promote a viewpoint rather than an objective presentation of facts with other views. And I say that with my very full appreciation for oral "history" as full of facts and errors that oral histories can be whether it is from the days of my great grandfathers or events further in their past as word of mouth can be handed down. When history is dramatized and seems to present as "facts" whether about Native Americans or any other ethic group we must analyze them very objectively because it seems whether it be PBS or another group the presenters often have an "agenda". It is an agenda that I saw. Perhaps others saw, it as did CMD. I could but won't go into explicit detail about the problems I saw. Either you saw them or you did not.

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  • CMD
    replied
    I haven't been disappointed at all. I actually had the opportunity of viewing part one before its TV premier, at a special event hosted by our state university. And in the company of two friends from the Hopi nation, whom I had not seen in years, and who were here to attend a symposium. We enjoyed it, and the discussion that followed. Both were pleased by the manner in which their oral history was presented. When I saw that first episode again on TV, it brought home a flood of memories that have connected me to that region for some 50 years now. I still hope I can return there one last time, and introduce my wife to that place and people.

    The entire series emphasizes oral histories. I am looking forward to the remaining chapters. Of course, the series is being presented as an opportunity to give voice to native peoples, and has very little to do with artifacts. Even the archaeology is minimal compared to most treatments, with greater emphasis on oral traditions, particularly in the animated portions of the episodes. I'm a huge fan of oral histories, dating back to my introduction to several clan histories of the Hopi. It was also nice to see native communities open access to such things as a Hopi pilgrimage to a cave at Chaco Canyon, and an investiture ceremony involving a tribe on Vancouver Island. In the case of the Hopi pilgrimage, they had never allowed outside filming of that cave ceremony before. And they allow no filming within their villages; that has been the case for several generations now. The series is not typical, that's for sure.

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  • Ron Kelley
    replied
    I agree with Joe. I was disappointed in the program.

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  • CMD
    replied
    I can think of one thing I've seen on TV a lot in the past few years that has made humming bricks very tempting.

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