Where's Waldo?

[CJRocks101]

I am posting this image in this forum because I'm interested in the story being told by the 'artist(s)'. I wonder if it was one person, or several over time. What do the symbols tell the viewer?
If I have posted in the wrong forum, please advise and I will correct.

Catron County, New Mexico. Approximately 30 miles of bad road in from a 2-lane , between Fence Lake and Quemado. Between Highway 36 and Arizona.
The drawings are on the side that faces a semi-steep rocky incline. The back of the rock faces the plains, and appears as a normal boulder that fell. This rock is 1 of 2 parts. The parts appear as if they were a solid rock at one time. These ancient images seem to be directed toward the ridge.

My original perceptions was: 'a wall of ancient and current graffiti'. I imagined a hunter working on his arrowheads, while he kept a watchful eye on the plains. Maybe he used some of his time to etch some graffiti. Just as I'm dreaming ... my husband hands me an arrowhead. It appears incomplete or a failed attempt - see photo (is that affirmation??!!)

We didn't stay long at the site. In reviewing the pictures we took, I begin to see more than random symbols; more than ancient graffiti. Was this place a 'rest stop' of old? Is this rock a map? Do those swirls represent water? Or kivas? Are those feet? (Hang Ten!). Is that a person riding an animal? Is that a box canyon? Is that a ridge line? Are those deer hooves? Why does that look like a snake with antlers? Is that a mountain range? What are those circles? My imagination runs wild!

Do tell !!

[Havenhunter]

Judging by the patina, this sketches appear to have been drawn at the same time. If you happen to meet B.L., you might ask.
A dragon or sea serpent? Seriously?

[CJRocks101]

I gave that some thought. I'm aware there is current graffiti. I, unlike you, researched the other images before speaking.
I am not of the opinion that B.L. or any Spanish explorer, US Military troop, or any cowboy that rode through this area, took the time to perfectly etch the exact symbols that appear in preserved sites (sans current graffiti) across this state.
El Malpais, The Narrows, Inscription Rock, Butch and Sundance. Clovis. Pueblo. Anasazi.
Don't confuse amateur with stupid, and I won't confuse arrogance with 'experienced'.

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/la-cieneguilla-petroglyph-site

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/native-american-petroglyphs-art-drawings-260nw-1671117469.jpg

[Hal Gorges]

OUCH !!!, actually it would really be beneficial if you shot some extreme closeups to go along with future posts concerning these kinds of artifacts, , my personal opinion is that no one person would go to that much trouble to fake it for one reason or another....p.s.try not to be so defensive, after all, you didn’t scribble em, did ya ? Lol.

[CJRocks101]

YEP!
Appreciate your advice. Duly noted.
I requested interpretation, not authentication. While you respond with guidance, others respond with locker room condescension.
And derailed the topic.
If you're going to play in the locker room: the best offense is a great defense.
But thanks ...

[Hal Gorges]

Actually, I’ll say it plain..I want better closeups so I can maybe help interpret some of the symbols (which is what you asked for) RIGHT C.J.?,

[Lindenmeier-Man]

Sorry, I have more than 50 years experience , all over NM in such remote places. No one knows who BL was but the person was nice enough to date their work, 1930..

[Hal Gorges]

That’s hilarious, ole BT was on peyote...actually I was wondering who B.T was,

[Lindenmeier-Man]

Hey man, don’t knock the peyote buttons !

[Hal Gorges]

Wasn’t that about the time olé Hughes was wandering around out there.?

[CJRocks101]

Ole J.R., AL, P.O. J.M., and A.O., must have been at the peyote party too. Are those first initials at the top F.U.?
Maybe not ....

Evidently scribbled in the year 187. Wait; maybe the author was 187 years old? Gosh, I'll have to leave it to the experts ....
The patina on the left side and the patina on the right side are different. The left side of the fractured rock is much, much older than the right side (of the same rock).
Pay no attention to the algae. Water shed had absolutely nothing to do with the fracture or the patina. Water never follows the path of least resistance, and water could never alter the face of a rock. Fairies on peyote are definitely responsible.

Did you smell that? The scent of a boy's locker room just wafted by ...

Next time I'll crop the photo, and only show the part that serves my narrative.
None would be the wiser.

[CMD]

I’m not at all sure what the argument(?) is here? The dark areas of the rocks are desert varnish. Whenever something is carved into desert varnish, great contrast is created, so the glyphs are easily visible. When I drove through the Petrified Forest, I took over 400 photos of petroglyphs. Nearly every rock alongside the road had petroglyphs.

Often, you see later graffiti added anywhere from the 17th century onward. I would guess the number 187 is part of a date in the 1870’s, and would not be older than the Native American petroglyphs. Looks very possible that the rock did fracture since the entirety of a date in the 1870’s is no longer visible.

The petroglyphs that are visible look typical for the region. There are so many interpretations, both by native informants, and researchers into petroglyphs. Many times, clan symbols are rendered. In Canyon de Chelly Monument on the Navajo reservation in Az., there is a famous panel showing Spanish soldiers, and a priest, with a cross showing on his robe, high above the valley on the canyon walls. Probably 18th century, and if memory serves, a particular Spanish expedition has been suggested.

Not at all uncommon to see younger Native American petroglyphs carved over older ones, and, yes, you will notice patina differences in those cases. I saw beautiful petroglyph panels throughout my travels in Az., and Utah. They can be attributed, by their style, to various cultures and time periods. Beautiful Fremont culture petroglyphs are visible in Capital Reef National Park, Utah. Fremont petroglyphs are easy to distinguish from Ancestral Puebloan south of the Fremont culture zone.

Here in New England, where I have recorded, and published, studies of petroglyphs, we don’t get that great contrast created by pecking through desert varnish, and recording through photos is so easy. Traditionally, petroglyphs are chalked to create contrast. But, now we know chalking should never be practiced, as it can cause chemical changes and hence damage.

Anyway, I have no idea why there seems to be a negative attitude in this thread. Petroglyph panels usually display various times when carvings were rendered. This was the rule, not the exception. Some symbols can be interpreted, esp. when native informants are involved. This is particularly true of things like clan symbols. Many other symbols elude interpretation. I’ve always enjoyed petroglyph studies because petroglyphs reflect the inner life and thoughts of ancient people’s more so than the stone artifacts they left behind. In many ruins in the Cedar Mesa area of Utah, which has the largest concentration of Ancestral Puebloan(previously termed the Anasazi) ruins in the SW, the ruins are named after the most distinctive petroglyphs or pictographs found at the site.


BTW, the rock shown in the second photo does not appear to be a projectile point. Looks like lithic material for sure, possibly a flake. Can’t tell if it’s an unfinished tool just with that one photo, but looks like a flake more than anything else.

[CMD]

In the first photo in this thread, the snake with horns at the top of the panel is a great example of the horned serpent, one of the most universal creatures of Native American mythology, important in MesoAmerican cultures, as well as north of the border, and among tribes throughout North America. That is a super petroglyph to have come across. We can only imagine how important the horned serpent was, in Native American mythologies and belief systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horned_Serpent

Also, in the bottom left of the first photo can be seen a human figure with one arm upraised, and splayed fingers. Similar glyphs are found here in New England. Humans, one arm raised, exaggerated hand size, and splayed fingers. Of course, vastly separated cultures, yet it seems to be a common motif across the continent. I have recorded two such figures at the Mark Rock petroglyph site in Rhode Island, which can be seen in the petroglyph section of our Information Center.

Much more recent than Ancestral Puebloan petroglyphs, here is that image of a Spanish expedition, recorded by the Navajo in Canyon de Chelly, and which I referred to earlier. I visited the site with a Navajo guide years ago, and it’s impressive how high up on the canyon wall it is located....

[CJRocks101]

No argument w/Forum: "Questions and Discussion". Not a fan of questions answered with zero value, leaving little opportunity for a worthy 'discussion'.
Hopefully the next amateur who asks valid questions will be inspired; first.

Then you showed up. Thank you.

Desert varnish - explanation for right side of rock being dark, left side being lighter in color and having a rougher surface? Would I be correct to interpret that water damage caused the split, water continued to run down the face of the left side of the rock eroding any varnish and creating rough surface? (while also exposing older drawings under younger ones?)

Agreed, 187 is partial date.
Would you suggest a trusted source for clan symbol reference?

Sincere appreciation for reference to horned serpent.

Humans, one arm raised, exaggerated hand size, and splayed fingers. Your thoughts/interpretations? "Hello! (friendly)"? Or "Stop! (No-Go!)"?

The Canyon de Chelly image:. Horses. Priests. Older under younger. Reminiscent of a video edit: 'Fade out'. Amazing. Thanks for sharing.

[CMD]

Your interpretation of how panel split seems reasonable, but I’m not familiar with the site. You can judge better than myself.

My introduction to clans, and symbols that stand for particular clans, was through Frank Waters classic “The Book of the Hopi”. But I don’t know of a good source for that specific topic. I do know that you can safely interpret animal tracks as clan symbols. For example, a bear print would be the Bear clan.

Here is a Hohokam pottery sherd, from Az., with a horned serpent:



These figures are all present on the Mark Rock ledge petroglyph site in RI. It’s been suggested(by archaeologist and Northeast petroglyph researcher Ed Lenik for one) that these splayed fingers figures represent shamans. I really have no idea, it’s just something I’ve noticed at petroglyph sites elsewhere, including on the panel you photographed.

[tomf]

This thread has a little bit of everything. Good plot arc, high quality production values, a great cast and a worthy message. I'm giving it a thumbs up.

[antmike915]

I agree Tom, at first I thought it was going to either get silly or ugly with no plot intrivals but after reviewing the whole picture I realized that it was interesting and informative. I rate it a 8.5 out of 10.

[Hal Gorges]

Winged serpent from Moundville, we don’t have em with horns in the southeast...Seems like the the ole serpent’s been around since Adam and Eve’s time

[CMD]

The horned serpent in the Southern Cult, or Southeastern Ceremonial Complex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southe...monial_Complex

[Hal Gorges]

Yeah, thanks, I missed that.one

[CJRocks101]

CMD, thank you for reference. Just reading for a second time. Off topic:
See: Last entry under "Motifs" references 'black drink'.
Trivia: Timucua clan/tribe. Yaupon Holly. High caffeine content. Spanish explorers on east coast said after drinking, one could go for 3 days without eating or sleeping. "Osceola" roughly translates to 'one who drinks and yells'. a.k.a. Cassina. Scientific name: Ilex Vomitoria
Love me some Florida history! St. Augustine specifically.
Thanks for the reference!

[CJRocks101]

Rock in-situ. Images face the ridge line.
I hadn’t really given thought to the elevation, but when editing, I noticed that all the mountains I generally see are absent from the horizon.
I regret not climbing up to the ridge line!
Pursuing the idea that this may be a trail marker or area map of sorts: A person on the ridge would have to come down from the ridge to view/read it.
We wondered if there might have been a ‘path’, or staircase for this purpose, and I am looking forward to searching for one.

[CJRocks101]

Yikes! Only photos ... not video?

[Hal Gorges]

That’s so cool, makes me want to go there..

[Ron Kelley]

Very cool lookin place and great ancient artifacts.

[MondoLithic]

There are plenty pictographs of the Horned Serpents at Sego Canyon, Utah (just north of Thompson Springs) Most of them are associated with the Barrier Canyon Culture.

The place is easily accessible, right off of Rte 70, with a parking lot at the base of the largest panel. The others are within walking distance.


Appears that the Horned Serpent is shown more being held vertically,

but ol' Cecil does swim in from the side in one of them.
Some of the photos have been digitally altered, unfortunately bullet holes needed to be erased.

http://scienceviews.com/indian/segocanyon.html

[CMD]

Great photos! Sadly, target practice of petroglyphs is a principal form of vandalism at many sites.

[CMD]

Sounds far easier to see those Barrier Canyon style figures than hiking to the famous panel in Canyonlands National Park!

[MondoLithic]

Sego's were a lot more accessable, the Grand Panel trail was flooded out, which was fine with me. The roads within Canyonlands and south to Monticello were "white knucklers". The exposure on some of the foot trails, while trying to balance with a half gallon of water on your back, was a little sketchy too. The Hand Prints (and Graneries) in the Salt Creek area were well worth the hikes though, if you go.
These were on a 10' to 14' overhang.

[CMD]

I did Canyonlands out of Lin Ottinger’s Moab Rock Shop. It had rained the day before, and that morning Lin was off to hunt gold, so we were led by a Navajo guide.