Atlatls

[Mattern]

I had heard that a bannerstone was once found in relation to an Atlatl somewhere in the south, many years ago. I asked one of my Archaeologist friends about it. He told me that the bannerstone was not found in direct relation to the Atlatl handle. I asked Paul F. if he had heard of this find and he led to this article. So as you will read, it wasn't just one, but at least 15. So much for asking a professional. My father always said, when doing research, verify, verify, verify. Interesting article. Kim

Atlatls and Bannerstones

Excavations at Indian Knoll

The University of Kentucky, Lexington, Reports in Anthropology and Archaeology Volume IV, Number 3, Part I

William S. Webb (1946)

Gustav's Library Vintage Reprint

Atlatl combination of hooks, weights and handles from burial associations One of the most electrifying archaeological discoveries in the Eastern United States was made near Mammoth Cave in Kentucky in the first half of the 20th Century. This site, known as Indian Knoll, was originally excavated and described in Some Aboriginal Sites on Green River Kentucky by Clarence B. Moore in 1916. Some of the most interesting artifacts recovered were prismoidal bannerstones and antler hooks. Moore postulated that the bannerstones were used as net web spacers and the antler artifacts as weaving hooks for net manufacture. The true significance of these finds was not recognized until some 20 years later when the site was re-excavated and the Moore expedition data was re-analyzed by Webb. The results were astounding, in Webb's own words: "From a careful study of this body of artifacts, their position in the features, and their association with each other, the conviction has grown that all of these antler hooks are the distal ends of atlatls. All of the antler sections are handles, attached to the proximal end of the atlatl, and the "banner" stones, sub rectangular bars, and composite shell artifacts are all atlatl weights.” Suggested restorations of atlatl forms Many of these artifacts were recovered in-situ with the handles, weights and hooks in their proper positions with matching hole diameters and traces of asphalt that was used as an adhesive. As Webb references plates from Moore's original excavation report we have reprinted this work as well. Please see the companion book Some Aboriginal Sites on Green River, Kentucky.as well as our reprint of Bannerstones of the North American Indian by Byron Knoblock This 6-3/4" x 10", 251 page, soft cover, facsimile reprint contains 58 illustrations, the majority of which are full page photographic plates, and one foldout map of the site. $19.95

[Hal Gorges]

Good read...I might add all those banners are of a barrel shape, keeping the center of gravity close to the shaft... the larger winged ones would throw off the balance, it’s also noted that at Key Marco Florida, of all the throwers found, no banners were present, obviously not needed for some folks to toss a dart,, just some comments on a tough subject...So what were the larger winged ones for,?

[Narrow Way Knapper]

One of my clients cousins found this one in May.

[Hal Gorges]

What a beauty

[Narrow Way Knapper]

I believe he said it was found near Anderson, SC.

[antmike915]

Very nice

[Mattern]

Banners!

The controversy is still with us Hal. Until someone finds a Bannerstone in direct association with something else we'll never know. It is well known that you don't need a weight to throw an Atlatl spear. People in other countries don't find fancy bannerstones, like we have, that I know of. Perhaps it could be a bow drill handle or stabilizer. ? Some of us should put our heads together and use our own logic and come up with some ulterior uses. Maybe some will come up with a real good Idea. Thanks for the info. you posted. Kim

[Narrow Way Knapper]

It surprises me that no one has ever found one in a cave with handle attached (if that is in fact it's purpose).

[Fat]

That seems like a unique color. Ive handled plenty at different shows.
Ive pondered alot. Plenty atlatl darts and none of the above kind of specimens.

[Fat]

I bet they would sell in Boulder. They resemble a left handed lucky smoking stone so when you are bogarting, you don’t fish lip’it..

[Cecilia]

Peach State Archeological Society references “Boatstone Bannerstones”, which really confuses me because boatstones seem to be nothing like bannerstones, except for maybe general size. I’m pretty sure I have a boatstone, but I just don’t get how it would fit onto an atlatl. Maybe I don’t understand how atlatls work (altho I’ve seen them demonstrated on TV)....

[CMD]

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/2...n-bannerstones

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https://forums.arrowheads.com/media/kunena/attachments/1841/Bannerstones-AncientNativeAmericanArtCD.pdf

[Cecilia]

Excellent article, and now jump-started an interest in bannerstones ! Tho they are in all my books, they seemed too outta my league, so to speak, for me to really study them (I gotta learn ABCs before can write cursive!). But now I realize how very little is truly known about them, and my ignorance-level not too far from many other folks. Maybe can catch up quickly!

[Mattern]

https://www.archaeology.org/issues/2...n-bannerstones

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https://forums.arrowheads.com/media/...ricanArtCD.pdf

Fantastic articles CMD. Long read but well worth it. Thanks. kim

[south fork]

Maybe the fancy ones were used before the hunt for good luck and not used in the hunt ?

[redrocks]

Good thread Kim

[Colorado EB]

I was reading something the other day about boatstones being used as weights on Atlatls. I never knew that that’s what they were used for. This got me thinking and looking through old posts and I can across pics of weights. Some with a groove from being tied, and some with out.

About 40% of my finds I believe are too big to have been used with a bow. So I assume they are launched by an Atlatl. So as I’ve been hunting/ searching lately, every rectangle type rock I see I’ve been inspecting it closer. It seems that if weights were used here in Colorado I would have seen signs of them by now.

Any ideas? Where can I find pics of western weights? Also what else can I look for? The hook was made of antler? On sites were people dig I know bones are still around and not decayed. I would think a antler hook would still turn up. Is that true?

[SGT.Digger]

There could be some info drawn from Inuit peoples and how their darts were designed and decorated to profit the hunt or appease the spirits ect. Also culturally was there a status symbol involved with the various designs ,like did kids start out with with just a tube form or was it an artistic expression of the individual hunter. I’m sure there’s more than one reason to even having one, size,shape, geographic location/materials . I think the larger the projectile thrown the more weight on the shaft the better the power and stability. I draw on my knowledge of Texas points and their size which many think are knives . The points 2-6 inches were hafted and hurled at large game ,**Buffalo **and other big animals. Disclaimer I’m not talking about Covingtons, Friday blades and the typical base tangs as being projectile points but points like montells,pedernales,castrovilles, and all the larger central Texas stuff ,(Yes There are some above mentioned points that were used as knives) I do believe that geographical locations has a lot to do with point expressions and having lithics to work with. Also the bannerstone and available materials to manufacture them . Cane doesn’t grow everywhere ect. *** someone posted an article maybe CMD about an extinct larger breed of Buffalo that a person found the skull in a creek and had a deep notched ear point a Bell type point embedded under the horn . That’s probably one of the more definitive articles as far as proof the larger stuff was used. The archeologist in the article said he had taught for years that those point were knives . We never thought that they were knives 🔪 pretty much every person I ever dug with. The name the old timers and folks I dug with called them spear points. The shear abundance of broken points in middens and campsites would deduce that they aren’t knives . The huge blades found in contest next to those perds ,montells , castrovilles ect would attest to what’s a knife and what’s not. You don’t find hundreds of broken blades, base tangs , Friday , Covington’s ect you rather find hundreds or thousands depending on how productive a spot is of broken projectiles, the later being that they are the ones doing the business/hunting and are being flung at 100 miles an hour at moving targets . Also why 99% of the brokes don’t have a match , the hafted portion was brought back to camp the rest was out in the field somewhere. Sorry got off on a thread during a simple edit of my much shorter response

[south fork]

[Cecilia]

First time saw this object today, and it is absolutely incredible! There’s no mistaking its beautiful boat shape, and can easily imagine groove being used for thong to tie to atlatl. I read somewhere that perhaps hollow of boat filled with tar, pitch, or some other sticky substance to further stabilize contact with atlatl. The groove on the object that I found that maybe a boatstone runs lengthwise bottom of keel, almost from bow to stern. It is same shape as this, but not nearly so beautiful, and mentor thinks maybe unfinished. Thank you! (...got that lil’ artifact shudder I get sometimes....!)

[south fork]

N. California find by Artifact Jack I can see the ridge where found from my deck .