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Did Native Americans make "portable rock art"

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  • #16
    My thought are that you used quite a bit of imagination to get to your theory lol. Nothing wrong with that and you seem like a very astute, reasonable person. This is my advice, spend some time looking into the methods and techniques Native Americans used to make stone effigies and tools. Then spend some time looking at authentic, well documented effigies and stone statuary. My avatar is a good example of what I'm referring to. I think you will see that Native Americans crafted stone with exquisite expertise for the most part. There methods were passed down and perfected. Most Native art is anything but abstract or simple. It's often uniform, symmetrical bearing symbology, patterns, definition and realism. Nothing you need to scratch your head, squint your eyes, stand on your head to recognize.
    Your suggestion that faint modifications to natural stones in an impromptu and expedient manner to create effigies is an incorrect idea we've heard here time and time again. I think this is a result of our misunderstandings and fictitious presumptions about Native Americans based partly from our own modern inadequacies to use primitive techniques. I.e "it's so simple, why wouldn't they have done it?". And then partly based in the idea that NA were primitive and unimaginative artisans who made crude, simple doodle like effigies and left them in the thousands. This is simply not the case, and the archaeological evidence from thousands of documented sites confirms that theory is false.
    If you simply want validation, you can find plenty of misguided, mis informed like-minded folks on the web who will happily invite you into the community of rock art enthusiast. If you want the truth your in the right spot. Portable/non portable rock art is a real thing but the real version doesn't look like what your showing. Forgive our lack of patience with your suggestions. It's only because this is an ever constant battle here on this site, and many people can not be dissuaded from these common misconceptions. They often get defensive, sometimes they get banned, some just leave forever unwilling to accept the truth. Then occasionally some step back, wipe what they thought they knew away, look at the facts and realize they were incorrect about those rocks they had been hoarding. Those folks often become some of the most knowledgeable collectors and contributors on this forum.

    Josh (Ky/Tn collector)


    • SurfaceHunter
      SurfaceHunter commented
      Editing a comment
      Very well written

    • oldrocks2
      oldrocks2 commented
      Editing a comment
      I like that Kyflintguy.Well said.

  • #17
    Do we know what confirmation bias is? The original post and your follow ups are perfect examples.
    Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan


    • #18
      I totally agree with you Kyflintguy. I first off used a good amount of imagination in my speculation of what it might have been like thousands of years ago.

      I have also looked at legit art pieces and 100% agree with your assessment that the art and techniques were perfected over generations and done so meticulously. Most of the art I have seen dates back as far as thousands of years.

      Just for the sake of argument, if the oldest piece is roughly 5,000 years old, and paleo Indian was present in the area to 12,000 years ago or longer, I might wonder what art was like in that 7,000 year plus gap. We actually know very little about paleo natives.

      I am not trying to say I know anything and again I have my beliefs th as t skew how I see things similar to how you see things three your lenses / world view.

      As a lake superior agate picker I want to share a story. I found a nice sized full nodule agate with beautiful banding visible only in one small section. I was sharing it with friends and someone brought up cutting it too see what it looks like on the inside. Everyone agreed "you don't do that" because you want it in its natural state (which is also more valuable financially). Now if I did cut it up and make into a pretty necklace it may have value to a whole other group of people who see it as jewlery (and may see that full nodule as "just another rock"). This concept is what is behind my argument, that everyone is chasing points, scrapers, axes, effigy's, etc because they value them for whatever there reasons. I get it and truth be told, I fit into this category just like you do.

      For the sake of argument if paleo man was more about the natural stone ("full nodule agate") and overtime people started to value the pretty necklace. This would mean something in terms of the art they made and used. Additionally opinions on this can vary a lot from person to person from the same group or era.

      I will admit I know little about artifacts and what I am suggesting is taking a legitimate concept and generalizing it into a theory. On the contrary though there are stone art pieces closer to what I am describing then the pieces you described out there that have been rejected by the archeological community only to be later accepted as legit native American art. I will also admit that there is a lot of people who think they have an artifact that is far from and there are lots of ridiculous examples out there.

      I am simply trying to challenge people to dig a little deeper.

      I was once told a story about desert storm. A helicopter pilot had orders to shoot down anything it saw in the sky. One of our own helicopters came over the horizon and it was promptly shot down even though the pilot saw it was one of our own. Why would that happen you might wonder? It is because his brain was looking for anything in the sky and preset to just shoot it down.

      I can honestly say that I was pretty disturbed by archeologist reactions just by blindly asking about my little duck transformer rock or rock art as a topic. That bias I experienced goes beyond this one issue and I promise you it is skewing us all and impacting how we understand history. I don't think that is good.

      As you can tell I like to challenge people and I just hope we all can keep our mind and eyes open.


      • Kyflintguy
        Kyflintguy commented
        Editing a comment
        I see the points your trying to make, but there a few variables in your calculations about us that are incorrect. You came here with a question (does portable Rock art exist?) and asked for our thoughts and opinions. Now your "challenging" us to dig deeper, why? Your response here says alot about your opinion of us and how much you value your own opinion even though you claim not to know everything there is about artifacts. Your not taking into account that your receiving responses from people who live and breathe the prehistory of this continent. I know I don't take the comments I make to help others lightly nor do many others, I scrutinize my own suggestions for accuracy before I give any kind of answer on most any question posed. So rest assured your mystery rocks have been vetted with open minds and eyes. The fact is it's just an easy call, im sorry if it wasn't for you. But it was for me and many others here. It's not bias, nor lack of knowledge about what Paleo people's artifacts and art look like. It's just about knowing the facts, years of looking at complete site assemblages, studying the archaeological evidence, applying primitive techniques with your own hands. All things that I wouldn't expect someone with a passing interest in artifacts to realise or fully understand.

    • #19
      Click image for larger version

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ID:	430218 You're challenged, lol. Did you read what you just wrote? From copious notes or did it just flow out of you? I'm very sure there is more. Keep writing, you are being diagnosed and evaluated. Rabbit Holing. You don't have to prove anything and we have to disprove it to your satisfaction when your mind is in a loop, unable to open and see that you are an ant crawling on a Picasso here. In this classroom you don't get to teach (yet) or have a podium for your theories and assumptions. I'm sorry for my response, Dsno54. I truly am. Text looks mean. I help everyone I can that will accept it. I do not speak for all here but, as others have already written on your posts, many of us have had it with posts/theories JUST LIKE YOURS...for years.... and we have hundreds of years of combined experience and knowledge in collecting and archaeology on here from members. All free and glad to provide it.
      Professor Shellman


      • #20
        So let me create some fictional situations based on what I want and how I want it to turn out, then expect others to agree with me. I will not substantiate my comments , thoughts, made up scenarios with facts, I'll expect you to do that. For despite how my mind is capable of all of these deep thoughts and I can present them in a reasonable tone I know I'm trying to persuade others of something that is in all likelihood unrealistic or logical. But I will defend my right to continue on with my thoughts and arguments for at some possible time yet to come I may yet persuade others of my lack of logic.

        You do have a choice, learn or find others who think like you somewhere else.
        Searching the fields of Northwest Indiana and Southwestern Michigan


        • #21
          Dsno, I am new to this site as well and had a completely different and very pleasant start here. Let me give you a bit of advice, let your curiosity take you down a rabbit hole in the forums and you will see just how knowledgeable everybody is, how much this site has to offer and figure out what you are up against before you get going here. This site is like an overstreet guide that comes with an archeology/geology professor to answer any additional questions FOR FREE. I have read several posts which end in a banning due to the fact that pride wouldn’t allow someone to admit that they were wrong or they got angry and used abusive language instead of taking the free education and camaraderie. Just my two cents, not trying to offend, trying to save you from eliminating possibly your best resource for information about North American artifacts and fossils on the Internet. Good luck, happy rock hunting!!


          • #22
            I moved this topic to it's appropriate space in the forum. " Rocks Mistakenly Believed to be Artifacts"
            TN formerly CT Visit our store


            • #23
              If I found hundreds or dozens of rocks in context like those at a shelter site or midden site I would think something is fishy and could form some hypothesis . It would be strange in my opinion to leave them laying around if they were not utilitarian . Like someone mentioned in found context of a “mound “site properly dug and documented then they could make some assumptions as to them being some spiritual/ offering/ artistic expression but anything else would be conjecture. If they were actually pecked and ground you could have something. If you’ve seen any of the pottery that comes from these mound sites they don’t leave you scratching your head wondering what they were making. From the paleo to modern Indians their art and craftsmanship is impeccable


              • #24
                More than meets the eye... Alas transformer aliens aren't real....yet!


                • #25
                  Please don't encourage this nonsense!!!

                  This is one of my favorite U.P. waterfalls: Manabezho Falls

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                  Below the falls are hundreds of stacked rocks
                  until spring when the rushing water knocks them down again:
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                  Michigan Yooper
                  If You Don’t Stand for Something, You’ll Fall for Anything


                  • TJdave
                    TJdave commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Thats pretty stunning Ron.