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I not tried to type it.
It was found substantially below typed Simpson/Suwanee points.
It was found substantially below typed Simpson/Suwanee points.
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Simpson/Suwanee points means you are probably in Georgia or Florida. Interesting, do you mind if I ask what county? I don't recognize the material, I guess it could be a pretty piece of coral, but it looked like some type of Dendritic agate to me at first glance. Did you make it to the First Floridians Conference in Monticello Fl a couple of weeks back? The who's who of academics interested in your find were there, as well as some interested amateurs such as myself.Originally posted by Reflector View Post
You should dig up some info on the Page Ladson Lanceolate form. Jim Dunbar and others (including Dennis Stanford, Jim Adovasio) seem to be really comfortable calling it pre-Clovis. If they are comfortable with it, I'm pretty sure it's a valid reference point.Hong Kong, but from Indiana/FloridaComment
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The only thing I can say is ...I have reached out to those exact people and others over
25 yrs ago.
Offered to open my house to them. No response. I think Dunbars knee hurt him.
He could not travel anywhere but to work?
So ,I can only do what I can. Heres IMHO a pre-clovis point. Before that.. its was all bone and wood. And whopper choppers.
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25 years ago? Heck you might as well have started off saying that they were made by aliens... Mentioning pre-clovis, or worse acknowledging it if you were a researcher, was kind of the kiss of death before 1997 or so. As one well known and very non-politically correct archaeologist said about announcing pre-clovis finds before Monte Verde in 1997, it was like announcing that your wife got "knocked up by a colored guy."
If you are Florida or South Georgia based and want to take another swing at talking to some researchers who have great academic credentials and aren't limited by a thesis they wrote 40 years ago, shoot me a PM. I can put you in contact with a couple of people doing pretty cutting edge research.Hong Kong, but from Indiana/FloridaComment
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Interesting video, I'll have to listen to it carefully. I left right before lunch to drive back down to Miami.Originally posted by Reflector View Post
Hong Kong, but from Indiana/FloridaComment
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I received this letter today concerning the Solutrean points I've shown photo's of here:Dear David,By way of an October meeting which Mr.. Forrest Morgan of Mathews County had with Dennis J. Stanford and Darrin Lowery, the scientists have visually examined the pictures you forwarded to me and conclude they show the nature of Solutrean technology used by past Paleo-Americans.I believe your offer of permanent display at the Gwynn's Island Museum of Mark Small's collection of Solutrean points and knives would help to reinforce our knowledge of the technology used by Paleo-Americans living in Virginia. I base this upon the statement above by the Smithsonian scientists and your statement of location found. You stated ---"the two Solutrean Blades were recovered by dredge boat off off Haven Bar Buoy while the smaller four projectile points, one By-pointed and three indented base Solutrean points, were recovered along that stretch of shoreline from Gwynn's Island to Bethel Beach".Although it is not known for certain who, when or where the artifacts were used or produced, it is reasonable to understand that the rising waters of Chesapeake Bay have covered these artifacts once used by early day inhabitants.I believe these artifacts, as described, would serve the public better on display at the Gwynn's Island Museum than privately held.Therefore, with the above statements made knowledge to all interested parties and donors, I support your naming the Gwynn's Island Museum as ultimately obtaining Mr. Mark Small's collection as a result of your promotion.If you decide to use the Museum in your promotion, please send me a copy of your advertisement for review before publication.Sincerely,
Tom Edwards,Director of the Gwynn's Island MuseumOctober 24, 2015
>>The museum will offer promotional consideration for moneys raised to access these ultra-rare artifacts to the Gwynn's Island Museum, and thereby assuring their availability to Dr Stanford's team and to the general public. Recognition for contributions to access this collection will be prominently listed on the descriptive plaque in the displayLast edited by Guest; 10-24-2015, 02:01 PM.Comment
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Funny, I happened to be looking at these through the arrowheads store before I saw this thread. Really awesome stuff... and the way that big one was found, pretty incredible.Comment
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The writer "Tom Edwards"makes reference to you making these a permanent display at the Gwynn's Island Museum but I notice you are still trying to sell these. Another thing to note is you seem to conclude these are in fact pre-clovis points. How ever the writer of the letter you just posted states "By way of an October meeting which Mr.. Forrest Morgan of Mathews County had with Dennis J. Stanford and Darrin Lowery, the scientists have visually examined the pictures you forwarded to me and conclude they show the nature of Solutrean technology used by past Paleo-Americans." and "Although it is not known for certain who, when or where the artifacts were used or produced, it is reasonable to understand that the rising waters of Chesapeake Bay have covered these artifacts once used by early day inhabitants"Originally posted by David Stone Sweet View Post
Can you explain why you are so certain these blades are Solutrean. After all David Solutrean is a hypotesis !TN formerly CT Visit our store http://stores.arrowheads.com/store.p...m-Trading-PostComment
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The Solutrean Hypothesis is an explanation of how early man might have come to America. No other viable explanation exists as possible through examination of artifact tool-kit assemblages from Beringia or any other direction, There is a big difference between the explanation and actual artifacts that cannot have been made by another Culture found HERE on mid Atlantic shores.
The Solutrean Hypothesis is an attempt to explain WHY something is here that should under any other explanation not even exist here..... Personally, I tend to focus on the artifacts and their own stories, for if told correctly, in my sincerest belief, the end result will inevitably be what is expressed and illustrated within Dr's Stanfor and Bradley's 'Across Atlantic Ice"
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Seems like if you are really interested in putting these in the hands of the scientific community why dont you just loan them or donate them for further research...Josh (Ky/Tn collector)Comment
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These are not mine to dispose of as I wish.....
I arranged the loan of the two larger blades prior to the Paleo-conference in NM in 2012. These two were cast by Mike Frank for that event, the originals being returned. There is a long history of association between Gwynn's Island Museum and the Smithsonian, and the Cinmar blade was discovered in the very same museum, languishing for decades unrecognized. The original is now replaced with an exact cast, and a very nice display has been made of the Cinmar artifact and fossil ivory--this will add to the display, and place these at the hands of the Smithsonian at their leisure
"Solutrean Hypothesis and actual artifacts found which belonging to that cultural tradition" is in the same boat as the discovery of Paleo-man and mammoth being from the same time period nearly 80 years ago in the first Clovis and Folsom discoveries.
I could not reconcile these additional four blades with known types from my region, nor with outlying regional types, nor even more distant cultural entities here in the US. On two examples, basal thinning is performed by removal of larger basal-struck flake/s upon one face, which are over flaked to some degree. Opposite faces on both points shows minute ribbon-like flake scars removed in series across the base. Form originally suggested Jacks Reef to me but in the midst of a host of pentagonal examples, these stood out like sore thumbs as different, so too with the triangle points.
Looking at crude flake-Clovis examples, and still earlier material, the suggestions of their not belonging to later, more regionally typical typologies, became more pronounced in my mind. I began comparisons with such Solutrean and Pre-Clovis material as I could find--clear images and sketches of flaking patterns, etc. helped, but examples are still relatively few in number.
The bi-point is rather clear in its own way--an outre' passe flake (long, flat, evenly wide and uniformly thin) was used to produce the point. Flaking is directly typical of Solutrean style and the form is not like anything known east of the Rocky Mountains, imo, and I've looked hard to find examples.
It was at this point several months ago that I wrote Mike Frank and sent images of these
For those wishing to understand more, do some research--Across Atlantic Ice is an excellent start. Flaking patterns and details of how the flake or blade was derived may be read on the surfaces of these points--understanding Solutrean flaking is something I am striving for greater understandings of. Basically, one has to know the terrain in order to navigate it. Without a greater understanding of Solutrean and Clovis flaking traditions, I'm still a novice here.
For me, Dr Bradley's 'Clovis Technology' is another must-have pub I do not yet have in my hands; there is a lot more to Solutrean flaking yet to be understood here--and I amy soon find myself presenting these at public lectures to promote their acquisition by the GIM...
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I am disgusted with things--this is what the Gwynn's Island Museum will permit me to work with, regards their efforts with me to raise funds for museum acquisition:
These artifacts belong to Mark Small's widow, XXXXXXXXX Small. Her goal is to raise $25,000 for her personal needs. All funds received will be escrowed in a banked 'Solutrean Artifact Account'. The deadline for her to receive your promotional effort will be March 1, 2016. All amounts received will be acknowledged by letter or e-mail.Mrs. Small will make the determination to gift the artifacts to the Museum, or not, by the above date. Should Mrs. Small decide to keep the artifacts, she will return funds with a letter to those who have sent funds to the above account by March 15, 2016. Should Mrs. Small decide to donate the artifacts to the museum, she will write a letter by March 15, 2016, telling this fact to all who have responded to this promotion .Mrs. Small could possibly be entitled to claiming her artifact gifts as a donation to the Gwynn's Island Civic League which has been designated as a public charity organization.Funds may be sent to the following address with checks made to 'Solutrean Artifact Account'.
I cannot believe the museum is so incapable of offering more to obtain these--I wouldn't contribute to this fund raiser the way the museum wants it worded. I let them know they could found a charitable organization that raised funds for the acquisition of items, which in turn would be donated to the museum--the concept was flatly refused.
Top it off--Dr Lowery starts in on my commercialization' of the deceased's estate collection, the Solutrean artifacts in particular while a David White is quoting me with the speculation of what is solutrean worth--$10,000 per blade?
I gave the good doctor an ear-full about having bought artifacts from me, then painting me as a wrongful commercializer of antiquities, in so many words
I also reminded him that he refuses without explanation to even reply to my emails sending him images Mike Frank, a co-worker, recommended as being Solutrean-like
I found it unprofessional in the extreme to talk about me behind my back and yet refuse to speak with me
The final shot I took was to remind him that an endowment foundation could provide purchase of artifacts and donation to that any given institutions needed--that in so many words he could find someone to do the dirty work while the archies pretense at pristine behavior could be kept up
Someone should start a Solutrean Fund to aid in the Smithsonian's acquisition of these artifacts, so archies don't have to spend time pointing fingers at their favorite villians while pretending to ignore the fact that their own system ties them into the knots that constrict their actions. The archaeological community needs to re-think their paradigm for acquiring needed research material--along the lines of scaled payment amounts of items/artifacts juried to determine the real need of each item
Oddest of all through this, not once has anyone asked if I would make these artifacts available for study by the Smithsonian, which I have no issues with doing IF asked. More, these have been available for examnation in my home by anyone who sincerely wishes to see and hold them...so far, I've heard only silence from the professional community on this issue, and even the Gwynn's Island Museum ignored the issue while housing a very nice display of the Cinmar artifacts (cast of original blade by Mike Frank)
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I'm confused!
You offered the points for sale on Facebook on 26th September last year (presumably on behalf of Mrs Small, since you say that you don't own them) at 20 grand. >>> “For sale - the only Solutrean-American continental bi-faces (2) available for sale in the world. Offered now for $20,000 for the pair.”
They didn’t sell, and on 11th May this year, you and Chris Trimble of “Trimble’s Tavern Antiques” offered them again via the "Mark Small's Artifacts" page >>> “I will consider serious offers.....”
Mrs Small wants 25 grand via a fund contribution mechanism that avoids taxation and she will then "gift(?)" them to the museum... but if the fund doesn't come close enough to $25,000 then she may or may not "gift" them and will return the money to contributors after March next year if she decides not to.
Do I have this right?I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.Comment
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What you missed is the refusal of the museum to treat the artifacts as a acquisitional goal--the museum wanted the wording to read as stated--a fund raiser for the widow....with an ambiguously non-commital arrangement to gift the artifacts.
Offered them a guaranteed commitment, and they claim their by-laws limit them to issuing the statement given. I could care less about taxation, and in an effort to present the museum, which already has a Cinmar exhibit, to acquire these additional artifacts, thus becoming the body to make them available for Dr Stanford's study
As a reminder that I am aware of the venue I advertised upon, it goes without saying that the majority of facebook artifact buyers/sellers are hardly smarter than a picnic basket--I never had expectations of selling them on fb.
I advertised them to draw attention to them, and to the owner's name, which of due course needs to be associated with these artifacts as provenience and history of the collection
Bottom line is I represent the late Mark Small's only possessions of value, by contract with his widow. Everyone from collector-buyers to the pro's expects their interests to supersede the widow's, that I should act in their own best interests rather than the widow's...and they can be quite hateful about it....and still they do not recognize their issues are the product of their own systems failures, not mine.
I sold a collection of material to the friends of the first landing state park, which in turn donated the entire lot to the park's museum. THIS is a paradigm worth pursuing....said suggestion to Gwynn's Island Museum was abrupt silence beyond admonishing me not to use the museums' name in any fund raisers. GIM's Friends sounded really good, too
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David, since it appears you & the museum have reached an impasse and, as you state your priority is to broker Mark's artifacts for his widow, why not contact a reputable auction house? You appear to have established some provenience on these pieces and you can set a reserve price so that the widow won't be forced to take less than she wants. I realize you would like to provide access to archeologists to study these points, but clearly they aren't interested. Just food for thought. . .Child of the tidesComment
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That is one of my considerations...I have other options still, and am exploring them. Time will tell regards other's requesting their study--the idea that someone else might provide then with the data they would rather have gleaned themselves might stir them yet to ask. I've placed the offer on the table publicly. I am the sole photographic record of these artifacts, and they are shown in detail at the attached link.Comment
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