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**Pointhead** · 01-18-2020, 09:44 PM

And those points you showed had the flaking. As opposed to the rock you posted originally.

**Emaner377** · 01-20-2020, 02:17 PM

Water worn Argillite drove me crazy when i first started hunting points..still a newb here too.
Ive since grown fond of the lithic and i have only a few solid finds of it. I agree with Charlie this is just a rock..but good eye man! BTW I've shown what i thought were just rocks of Argillite to Charlie and he assured me they were in fact points so he calls it like he sees it. He also tought me not too waste too much time and energy on the "maybe" artifacts and focus on finding the NO DOUBT Artifacts! Hes a wealth of information and a Conservationist as well. We're lucky to have him in our area and on this site. He's more than just an "experienced collector " keep hunting brother!

**kayakaddict** · 01-22-2020, 08:21 PM

I will not say if this is an artifact because I don't know. It does kinda have a shape but that doesn't say enough to me. Artifacts can be shaped like almost anything especially those expediently produced. Although I have flaked/knapped a couple hundred pounds of argillite, sat around with others doing it too, found and seen perfectly smooth argillite artifacts with absolutely no sign of flaking left (and I could be wrong about some of them) and tested a dozen varieties of it from different quarries, some times I think a solid confirmation of a piece as "artifact" is not possible. Even if it "rings" (argillite rings when struck) even if you chip off the patina to reveal the lithic, things can be broken, worn, washed down river 100 miles. One thing that does help is when an item is found in association with other clearly identifyable artifacts, especially buried and undisturbed. Just my humble, amateur opinion. Save this item if you like it.

**Hunting_Dad** · 01-24-2020, 03:20 PM

This will probably do more to complicate the current discussion...
I have shared this previously with Charlie as I knew he would appreciate the beauty of an "erased" Stark point

**utilized flake** · 01-24-2020, 03:34 PM

The edges are usually resharpened by step fractures. It can be tough to see the flaking but as everyone has summed up, there is a pattern there that will be easier to recognize once you have handled enough artifacts and maybes. Many of the points that have beach wear are so hard to distinguish from the maybes. Plus the maybes will become lesser as you gain more experience. Welcome to our plight as process of elimination sticklers!!

**CMD** · 02-04-2020, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by jrdewhirst View Post

OK, I'm just trying to learn. Whether the pictured piece is an artifact is not really terribly important to me. Yes, I am new to this hobby -- so teach me.

This is a picture of an argillite point collected in RI. The very experienced collector writes, "You want to see what water wear can do to our lithics, our argillite can be weathered to the point that the flaking is virtually erased. Here is such an argillite point. Argillite may be our poorest lithic, be it our local varieties, or something like Lockatong Argillite from Pa/NJ, which weathers worst of all. Unless one is used to finding points with this degree of water wear, one could easily just not collect this at all. Many, from outside our region, might very well say "that's just a rock", but, nope, this is an extreme case of water wear. I took to calling this degree an "erased point". >>

I ask in all sincerity what has it got that identifies it as an artifact?

Same question about another two from the same collector:

And two others from a different collector:

How do I identify these stones as something more than vaguely triangular pieces of rock? Thanks.

I'm not sure how I missed the continuation of this discussion. The first point shown here, and the last one, shown as an attachment, well, actually, it's visible only in the original comment I'm replying to here, and not enlarged, were found by either myself, or my wife. They are exactly as I described them in the quote provided. I think I would have to show the questioner the points in question, in person, and try to show him the difference between the rock that is central to his thread, and the water worn argillite points. Also, the truer color the poster showed later in the thread is greenish, and much argillite patinates greenish. I'm still not convinced it's an argillite rock, however. Be that as it may, I could take better photos of those argillite points the poster is wondering about. Maybe someday.

But, and this is the real observation I want to make. May the poster see the truth in it, if not now, in time. And time is at the heart of it. It goes like this: with experience, recognition becomes second nature. At that second nature level, the experienced eye WILL recognize the difference. Inexperience almost surely will not. In person, in hand, usually yields better results in conveying why one is a rock, and one a water worn, "erased point". If this poster hunts for years into the future, concentrating on beaches, where watervworn argillite points are found, he will understand perfectly.

I could post better photos, and attempt doing it that way, but I'm not sure if or when I will, or if it would be good enough for a beginner. You really need to develop the eye, that second nature recognition, that does allow one to recognize even the subtlest alteration of a rock, the slightest human modification. With many rocks, not just points. True, but very crude, notched weights often go unrecognized before one develops an eye.

So, there is only so much one can do. The rock at the center of the thread is not a water worn argillite point, IMHO. The examples shown, collected by my wife and I, are, and the poster will likely develop an eye for water worn points in time. I wish him luck in the hunt.

**CMD** · 02-04-2020, 11:51 PM

jrdewhirst wrote: "Yes, I am new to this hobby-so teach me".

I just looked at the frame the two points in my collection came from, and realized I could post a sequence of argillite tools, from nicely flaked, to erased, but the simple truth is it's work, and I'm not getting paid to teach anymore. Not to the extent I would need to do to come close to where I thought I had done an excellent job in going about photographing highly erased points in such a way as to show the traces of flaking, etc. Sorry, but it would simply be too much work, and I am a busy man, tending to a seriously injured spouse at the moment, and other concerns more pressing than teaching a course in the recognition of water worn argillite artifacts. I can understand it's more general value to many collectors just starting out, and not just yourself, but, if so, that is a project for another day.

**CMD** · 02-05-2020, 07:26 AM

Final thoughts for jrdewhirst: Some things cannot be taught in an online format very easily. You need to develop an eye, something only experience can develop. All of us, when starting out, have to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps. Once things "click", everything I've told you will make perfect sense. In the case of our argillite, having tons of experience with argillite points that are not water worn, found well away from an environment like a turbulent tidal zone, found inland, in other words, will help immeasurably in recognizing the same point styles in a water worn condition. I cannot teach you that. You have to teach yourself via the experience I'm talking about. Having a very experienced hunting partner can make a huge difference, but not all beginners get that advantage.

**HBird** · 02-05-2020, 07:47 AM

I found several different artifacts made from Argillite last summer in NW New Jersey along the Delaware River this is some sort of knife

**CMD** · 02-05-2020, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by HBird View Post

I found several different artifacts made from Argillite last summer in NW New Jersey along the Delaware River this is some sort of knife

Lockatong Argillite, from NJ and P., is argillaceous shale, and grainier then New England Argillite, which is argillaceous slate. In my personal experience, no lithic weathers more readily, and to such an extreme degree, as Lockatong. And water is not needed. That lithic weathers away regardless of the environment in which they are lost.

**Eastern** · 02-05-2020, 07:00 PM

Jrdewirst, I understand the frustration! I have a creek in Missouri that turns up a ton of artifacts and debitage, and I may be trying to find something in these sandstone looking rocks. I believe maybe they are some kind of heat treated chert or flint as I find many of artifacts with the same attribute ends but obvious flint on the other side. I do not know if these are regular rocks or beaten up water worn tools that were used as something. I questioned it because I have found obvious points that were made of this material. This looks like a stone that easi first chance I get I am taking them to a local person to me know about these but trust me I understand the frustration and trying to see something that’s not there!

Attached Files

**CMD** · 02-05-2020, 08:47 PM

The more one finds and handles non-water worn argillite points, inland, away from bays and estuaries, the more the ability to recognize badly worn examples will grow. I believe that is key. Develop experience with the best preserved argillite points, and styles, because the style form, on the one hand, and the familiar appearance of patinated argillite will draw the eye, with experience. With New England argillite points, the flaking may be minimal from the start, a reflection of its slate nature.

Here's an argillite point from well inland. Flat spots are very typical on points made from argillite, I'm not a knapper, but I'm guessing this is a reflection of the lithic, and it's characteristics when making points from it....It would not be long before a piece like this could become an "erased" point in a surf zone

**Taterman421** · 02-05-2020, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by Eastern View Post

Jrdewirst, I understand the frustration! I have a creek in Missouri that turns up a ton of artifacts and debitage, and I may be trying to find something in these sandstone looking rocks. I believe maybe they are some kind of heat treated chert or flint as I find many of artifacts with the same attribute ends but obvious flint on the other side. I do not know if these are regular rocks or beaten up water worn tools that were used as something. I questioned it because I have found obvious points that were made of this material. This looks like a stone that easi first chance I get I am taking them to a local person to me know about these but trust me I understand the frustration and trying to see something that’s not there!

That one on the right looks like it has a thumb impression. Those rocks could possibly be ground stone tools that are used up and that impression/wear was left there from multiple times of use. I’ve really seen/collected similar things here in NC, always at creeks. Even seen used up tools at an actual Rhyolite quarry and I’ve noticed/collected some with what appears to have thumb impressions.

**HBird** · 02-05-2020, 09:42 PM

3 more Argillite artifacts I found last summer that were not found in water, they were found about 100 feet above the Delaware River. The Argillite seems to be a easily eroded rock in or out of water

**CMD** · 02-06-2020, 08:08 AM

Well, I said I wasn't going to get into this, at least not for awhile, but it turned out to be fun trying to show water worn pieces of New England argillite that are actual artifacts. And the second piece pictured here is one of the pieces from our collection that the OP was wondering about....

This one is telling, I think. Looking at this first photo, would not many simple not pick it up? I mean, that cannot be a point, right?

Well, no, of course it can be a point. Just flip it over, lol. It's a Brewerton Eared Notched:

And here is the one that the OP asked about. Both sides have broad, flat, unflaked areas, like the non-water worn argillite point seen in comment #27, above.
On this side, the flaking is best seen along the bottom edge. I believe this is a drill, but I guess it might be a much resharpened knife:

And, the other side. If one compares this artifact to the skin on the small rock at the center of the thread, it may, or may not, be clear that the rock at the center of this thread shows a cortex surface that was never flaked. This piece does not. It shows a patinated and flaked surface, just quite water worn....

And again, I believe the key to becoming educated in this lithic is to understand its limitations as a usable lithic, and to handle as many non-water worn examples, to be in the best, experienced, position to recognize these water worn examples of New England Argillite.

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