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Camp Surroundings
All year I only had one farm to hunt on. (I am very intimidated asking farmers if I can hunt.) On the farm I have only found one and my son two arrowheads. They all have been located in a twenty yard radius. Pretty large farm. I have searched the whole farm. My question is do I just pound the area where I found them? Or do I keep searching the other areas?
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Peace,<br />[br]Kozman -
The fact that you have permission to hunt that farm, ask the farmer if he knows other farmers in the area that he could put in a good word for you. Earlier this year I got permission to hunt a big farm. I found a few sites and he told me of one big campsite. I hit that hard and it got to the point I was not finding much. But after rains and after he plowed It was good again. I explored all the fields and If I was not finding any sign of a camp, I did not go back. I did find isolated points but no flaking to go with them. It does not hurt to walk the the area again. some sites are smaller and you could be twenty yards away and not find anything.
Look to the ground for it holds the past! -
if it were me
i would start in the area the point s were found,and work a grid pattern from that point out in each direction
and congrats on the finds
can we see pics of them ?
enquirering minds want to see them
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Sneaky, here is the thread of the one he found, he did not have pic's of his son'ssneakygroundbuzzard wrote:
if it were me
i would start in the area the point s were found,and work a grid pattern from that point out in each direction
and congrats on the finds
can we see pics of them ?
enquirering minds want to see them
Look to the ground for it holds the past!Comment
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thanks chase
now how in the world did i miss that post
nice find
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"(I am very intimidated asking farmers if I can hunt."
Archaeologists are probably a bit more intimidated than artifact collectors when they ask farmers for permission. We get turned down frequently. Earlier in the year, I re-found a significant archaeological site that had been lost to the archaeological community for nearly a century. It was known about by the farmer who owned it and a few others in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and a very cryptic and hard-to-decipher notation about the site was registered in the correspondence file of a Smithsonian Institution "Special Archaeologist." When the Special Archaeologist died suddenly of a heart attack in Washington, D.C.in 1923, the salient piece of correspondence and the cryptic information about the site were buried in the files of the National Anthropological Archives for nearly 100 years. Effectively, the site fell off the archaeological radar screen and became what you might call a "Lost Site."
After re-finding the site, I had hoped to do a little controlled archaeological survey work to figure out what kind of occupation(s) was there, how old the site might be, and what the artifact assemblage would look like. One of the co-owners turned me down. They had some "gubment" problems already, and there was a concern that archaeology might get them into even deeper problems with the "gubment." Honestly, it probably would not have done so, but that is one of the crosses we archaeologist bear: Private citizen fear of sudden and unexpected "gubment" involvement.
Tennessee has state archaeological site survey files in Nashville. The Tennessee Division of Archaeology has a standard, blank, electronic form that is used for recording key information on every new archaeological site that is found in the state. Any citizen that knows about an archaeological site can fill out a form on the site and submit it. All it does is to record the site for posterity and make the site information available for future research. That's it!!! It does not require the property owner to do anything, it does not prevent the property owner from using their land however they please, and it does not give the state or any third party a lien or easement on the property. Literally, no strings are attached.
Well, whenever I strike up a conversation with a farmer, ask if he has found any arrowheads or other artifacts on his land---everything generally goes fine. However, when I mention that I would like to walk his field, see what is there, and fill out a state site survey form, his facial mood changes and there is a clear look of concern. when the word "state" gets mentioned. I suppose there is a general feeling of distrust about government that arises in the minds of the farmers and the fear that unreasonable government strings might be attached---and heck---I ain't even representing the government. I am just out doing my own personal archaeological "good-deed-doing" for posterity. I wish there was some way to help ordinary property owners to understand that formally recording an archaeological site in Tennessee is as safe for them and their property as drinking a glass of bottled spring water---no strings are attached. And the farmers actually even gain some rights they never head before. For example, if some person jumps the fence with a shovel (without their permission) and starts tearing up an archaeological site in their side yard---and that site has been formally recorded---the person with the shovel can get extra charges filed against them over and above simply trespassing.
Back to the original point: One might intuitively assume that an archaeologist would have an easier time than an artifact collector in getting farmer permission to eyeball a plowed field. It ain't always so. We often times experience it as a hard nut to crack.
If you have any ideas about how to make that nut easier to crack, you can let me know here or send me an e-mail message. The e-mail address is on my blog.
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I would at least check the other areas a couple of times. May just have been there at the wrong time. You can pick an area clean and then once it has been changed by weather or the farmer, more pop out ( or disappear!).
There are times you find and times you don't!
You need to get onto some more farms! How old is your son, if he's young, take him with you. Old folks love young kids.
Good luck!
Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW MichiganComment
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orari, I was at a site this fall, that took sometime for the professionals to gain permission to excavate it. Sometimes its more building a relationships. There is always going to be a degree of mistrust. That is where breaking down those barriers takes time and talk. I will say it all gets back to relationships and intent. Avocational enthusiasts do build those bonds and will talk to the farmers . Respect what they do and talk their talk .orari wrote:
"(I am very intimidated asking farmers if I can hunt."
Archaeologists are probably a bit more intimidated than artifact collectors when they ask farmers for permission. We get turned down frequently. Earlier in the year, I re-found a significant archaeological site that had been lost to the archaeological community for nearly a century. It was known about by the farmer who owned it and a few others in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and a very cryptic and hard-to-decipher notation about the site was registered in the correspondence file of a Smithsonian Institution "Special Archaeologist." When the Special Archaeologist died suddenly of a heart attack in Washington, D.C.in 1923, the salient piece of correspondence and the cryptic information about the site were buried in the files of the National Anthropological Archives for nearly 100 years. Effectively, the site fell off the archaeological radar screen and became what you might call a "Lost Site."
After re-finding the site, I had hoped to do a little controlled archaeological survey work to figure out what kind of occupation(s) was there, how old the site might be, and what the artifact assemblage would look like. One of the co-owners turned me down. They had some "gubment" problems already, and there was a concern that archaeology might get them into even deeper problems with the "gubment." Honestly, it probably would not have done so, but that is one of the crosses we archaeologist bear: Private citizen fear of sudden and unexpected "gubment" involvement.
Tennessee has state archaeological site survey files in Nashville. The Tennessee Division of Archaeology has a standard, blank, electronic form that is used for recording key information on every new archaeological site that is found in the state. Any citizen that knows about an archaeological site can fill out a form on the site and submit it. All it does is to record the site for posterity and make the site information available for future research. That's it!!! It does not require the property owner to do anything, it does not prevent the property owner from using their land however they please, and it does not give the state or any third party a lien or easement on the property. Literally, no strings are attached.
Well, whenever I strike up a conversation with a farmer, ask if he has found any arrowheads or other artifacts on his land---everything generally goes fine. However, when I mention that I would like to walk his field, see what is there, and fill out a state site survey form, his facial mood changes and there is a clear look of concern.
when the word "state" gets mentioned. I suppose there is a general feeling of distrust about government that arises in the minds of the farmers and the fear that unreasonable government strings might be attached---and heck---I ain't even representing the government. I am just out doing my own personal archaeological "good-deed-doing" for posterity. I wish there was some way to help ordinary property owners to understand that formally recording an archaeological site in Tennessee is as safe for them and their property as drinking a glass of bottled spring water---no strings are attached. And the farmers actually even gain some rights they never head before. For example, if some person jumps the fence with a shovel (without their permission) and starts tearing up an archaeological site in their side yard---and that site has been formally recorded---the person with the shovel can get extra charges filed against them over and above simply trespassing.
Back to the original point: One might intuitively assume that an archaeologist would have an easier time than an artifact collector in getting farmer permission to eyeball a plowed field. It ain't always so. We often times experience it as a hard nut to crack.
If you have any ideas about how to make that nut easier to crack, you can let me know here or send me an e-mail message. The e-mail address is on my blog.
Look to the ground for it holds the past!Comment
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[QUOTE]chase wrote:
orari, I was at a site this fall, that took sometime for the professionals to gain permission to excavate it. Sometimes its more building a relationships. There is always going to be a degree of mistrust. That is where breaking down those barriers takes time and talk. I will say it all gets back to relationships and intent. Avocational enthusiasts do build those bonds and will talk to the farmers . Respect what they do and talk their talk .Originally posted by orari post=142912
Thanks Chase. I'll see what I can do better.
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Orari, you have to deal with that stigma because of what you are and that possible link to the government. I have had farmers give me permission but been questioned as to my intent and sworn to secrecy. They often enjoy what I find and I have shared some of those finds with them by giving them a small frame of points from their field. But if I would divulge the location or made it public, they don't like that idea. I think the idea of the government knowing there is a site on their property makes them fearful of what the government could or may do. I walk 3 fields adjacent to a known mound site since the 1880's. All 3 farmers know the history and have had folks walking these fields for over a 100 years so they are good with you being out there. But don't let them catch you on the protected site or your gone for good. On the other side of that, they are all po'd that they have lost good farm ground! Others I think would be good with an archaeological investigation or dig but bottom line I think to them they are losing production and yield and that to a farmer is what it's all about.
Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW MichiganComment
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Hey Greg. I am not familiar with your situations in Indiana. Here in Tennessee, state law does not require farmland to be taken out of production just because there is an archaeological site on it. Farmers are almost totally free to do whatever they wish with their land---even if a significant archaeological site is identified on the land. I say "almost" because farming activities that disturb a cemetery (prehistoric or recent) would probably require some sort of mitigation or removal action---but that would happen regardless of whether or not a site is surveyed and recorded. Tennessee site survey forms are not totally public records, so a farmer can get his site surveyed and still pretty much keep it a secret from the general public.gregszybala wrote:
Orari, you have to deal with that stigma because of what you are and that possible link to the government. I have had farmers give me permission but been questioned as to my intent and sworn to secrecy. They often enjoy what I find and I have shared some of those finds with them by giving them a small frame of points from their field. But if I would divulge the location or made it public, they don't like that idea. I think the idea of the government knowing there is a site on their property makes them fearful of what the government could or may do. I walk 3 fields adjacent to a known mound site since the 1880's. All 3 farmers know the history and have had folks walking these fields for over a 100 years so they are good with you being out there. But don't let them catch you on the protected site or your gone for good. On the other side of that, they are all po'd that they have lost good farm ground! Others I think would be good with an archaeological investigation or dig but bottom line I think to them they are losing production and yield and that to a farmer is what it's all about.
Can the state require a farmer to take archaeological site land on his property out of agricultural production in Indiana? I would like to read a copy of that rule if you have one---just to see how they word that. It sounds unusual to me---not doubting you---just sounds unusual.
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No your absolutely right Orari. Sounds like Tenn, and Indiana laws are very similar. Mitigation and removal in Indiana? It better be one heck of a site, otherwise ignored by the state and Archy's I'm guessing for lack of funds and time. The protected site was bought by the Archaeological Conservancy, that's why protected. The two fields that are farmed and I walk to the East and West of the protected site have documented mounds on them. To the farmers, no matter, they just farm away and I get to walk them!
Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW MichiganComment
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In the UK we have lost access to our gravel quarries due to archaeologists. The quarry is mandated - as a condition of their Planning Permission - to allow access to the archaeologists; who actively discourage the owners from permitting public access (collectors).
In the 80s -and- 90s you could get in by promising to be sensible and later on by wearing a hi-vis jacket and hard-hat. But these days there is no chance of getting access ....very sad.
Farmers are the same wherever you go, they are just people and respond to the right approach - in my experience. When I was metal detecting I used to joke that I collected farms not metal objects. If you get the farms the quantity and quality of finds comes only as a result of hours spent searching.
Like someone mentioned above, I virtually always used the name and approval of farmer No1 to approach farmer No2. Once I had secured a cluster of farmers in one area then I would simply go to the surrounding estates and farms and name their friends....domino effect.
Admittedly - as part of my ‘pitch’ - I always promised to let them know if I found anything significant and not to go running to the archaeologists. Farmers in the UK can be prohibited if the government places a prohibition order on them (Scheduled Ancient Monument); so I would be sure to word it in a way that it would be their decision entirely to inform the county archaeologist of anything.
TBH most farmers here are more concerned about ‘Rural Crime’ and promising them an extra pair of eyes on the farm can be a good selling point.
Take along some previous finds to show them, that whets their appetite. When you do start searching and find stuff then make sure you give them the odd piece. Putting them in a frame against a red cloth background would be very easy and earns you more credit than being a billionaire trying to open a bank account !
If your farmer shows other farmers the gifts you have given them then you may even get the call !
I offered a lost-and-found service for my farmers. That resulted in two requests, one for a lost wedding ring and the other a cufflink. The ring had been lost by the farmer’s wife ten years previously and the cufflink had been lost by a women – who took the cufflinks to wear to an open air BBQ without her husband knowing – so she was going to be in deep trouble. These were both on farms that I did not have permission for and I recovered both losses….permission in the bag for each was thereby assured :0)
At a human level, always maintain eye contact with the farmer; don’t look down or up all the time. Use open hand gestures and try to smile. Treat the encounter as a job interview, or sales pitch. Make sure that you promise not to walk on any crops. If they keep cattle or other animals tell them you will have a dedicated pair of wellies for their farm only, to make sure that bio-security of the farm is not compromised. Wellies are dirt cheap, farms are hard won !
Good luck….go get them
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