Pocket watch conversion

[Rockcrk]

I've done all the research that I can on this and can't find anything. The frame the pocket watch sits in is machined sterling silver. The pocket watch case is swiss along with the movement. Turn of the century. Some insight would be great!!!

[Rockcrk]

Oops sorry everyone , this was supposed to post on collectables.

[painshill]

Hi Rockcrk

I'm afraid those are pretty poor pictures for an item like that where you are looking for 'insight'. I can't even read the maker's mark on the dial. You haven't given any information about the marks on the case or the movement that enable you to conclude they're Swiss, Nor any given any indication if the frame into which it has been inserted has any hallmarks or maker's marks. Better pictures and a bit more information would be a great help.

I think this post really belongs in "All Things Collectable" so have moved it there with a temporary divert where you originally posted, which will expire in a week,

[Rockcrk]

Yes sir. That's why I posted "oops sorry I meant to post this in collectibles". I posted it in collectibles but will post better pictures cuz I am curious. The watch is Baum Geneva.The frame has no hallmarks but it's been tested as solid sterling silver. The watch is Hallmarked of course with Swiss hallmarks. But I'll take better pictures of the hallmarks and the movement when I get home. Thank you for the input sir.

[Rockcrk]

Would like a little help with this piece. The frame the pocket watch sits in is machined sterling silver the pocket watch is Swiss made along with the 950 fine sterling silver case. Have tried doing research on the frame of this particular conversion and I'm able to find anything. Anybody seeing anything like this before? If so who could the maker be?

[Duplicate pictures removed by Moderator]

[painshill]

I had already moved your post while you were in the process of posting again, so I have merged the two threads. You're now saying "950 fine sterling silver", but 950 is not the sterling standard. That would be 925 fine. Only a limited number of countries have produced with a 950 mark - including America in the 19th Century. It was a common Swiss standard though, so the frame might well also be Swiss... in which case it should have hallmarks, not just a 950 indication. If you provide more details, I can probably assist more.

[smbore]

there used ta be one kicking around my grandpa's house i remember thinking it was cool the way it turned in the frame. i sure cant help on identifying the peice but i have seen one just like it ...

[Rockcrk]

Here are some better pics of the hallmarks and numbers. .It's .935 silver Thanks for looking. Would appreciate any feedback.

[Rockcrk]

Looked over the frame very carefully. No hallmarks. I'm assuming it was made when the watch was. Made extremely well for no hallmarks. Might no be a conversion at all.

[painshill]

Thanks... that's more like it.

(I have consolidated your two threads into one. No need to start a new thread when you add more information, and it also splits any discussion into two sets of conversations).

There are two clues to the dating of the watch itself.

First, it must be between 1830 when Baume Brothers were founded and not later than 1918 when Paul Mercier joined them and the company name changed to Baume & Mercier.

Second, the hallmark narrows the date down further. It has a Swiss hallmark used for export silver, and almost exclusively for watch cases exported to Britain between 1888-1907.

In 1887, Britain introduced new requirements for imported gold and silver watch cases via the “British Merchandise Act”. From 1st January 1888 imported cases had to be hallmarked in a British Assay Office, or in their country of origin, or carry no hallmarks at all (and therefore couldn’t be sold as “silver”). Neither of the existing Swiss silver standards (.800 or .875) met the Sterling standard and so the import of Swiss silver cases was effectively going to be prohibited by default.

At a meeting of the Swiss Federal Council on 24 December 1887, it was decreed that an additional new standard be introduced to allow compliance with British law. The new standard was “0,935 Sterling” and .935 was chosen rather than .925 as a result of differences in understanding about what tolerances applied to assay analysis in Britain versus Switzerland. To confirm that a watch case had assayed at .935 a distinguishing hallmark was needed and the Swiss decided on three upright bears, each within a shield… one small bear above two large ones. That’s your mark.

In October 1890 it was proposed that the practice be discontinued and watch cases be marked 0,935 with a single bear. The Fédération Horlogère Suisse expressed concern on behalf of watch case makers that British customers had become sufficiently accustomed to seeing three bears that it would be unwise to abandon the mark and so both styles were then allowed. The number of bears didn’t matter for all markets and so watch cases of 0,935 silver that were submitted to the Bureaux de Contrôle (assay offices) were usually in packets marked “Destinée à l'Angleterre” (destined for England) to be stamped with three bears; everything else, including for America, was stamped with a single bear.

Further legislative changes meant that from 1st June 1907 all imported Swiss silver watch cases had to be assayed and hallmarked in a British assay office and so the three bears mark is generally not seen after that date unless a British hallmark is also present. Then in 1933, Switzerland introduced a 0,925 standard fully aligned to Sterling and accompanied by a duck hallmark.

It does look to me to be a post-manufacture conversion. If the frame had originally been part of the watch it would have been separately hallmarked (since it’s a detachable piece)… unless it’s not actually silver. While wristwatches became popular for women in the mid-1800s, they weren’t generally produced for men until the end of the 1800s, beginning with watches for military personnel. No way of telling when the conversion was done if the frame isn’t marked but I have seen a number of examples made at the beginning of the First world War for soldiers who found them more convenient but didn’t want to fork out for a completely new watch.

[Cecilia]

I don’t even wear watch (and try not look at clocks), but wanted know more coz this response!

[Talkingpoints]

Wow!....🙂

[Rockcrk]

I often wondered if it would categorize as a trench watch. That's extremely useful information and I appreciate it