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  • Water on Mars

    Interesting read

    Mars has an abundance of liquid water in the underground lakes in its south pole, according to a newly published study.
    🐜 🎤 SW Georgia

  • #2
    The evolutionists are at it again...And on a more serious note, the discovery of candy bars was earth shattering ( idea taken from the post itself ), cool dialogue..
    Floridaboy.

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    • #3
      I'm still waiting for the rover to come across a petroglyph!
      Searching the fields of NW Indiana and SW Michigan

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      • #4
        I try to keep up with the rover pics..
        Lubbock County Tx

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        • #5
          Always keep up on the latest Mars news also. I think Mars has high radiation though, unlike earth, going to make it hard for life. Will be interesting to see if there is a way to get down into those lakes and look around. Martian big mouth bass!
          Central Ohio

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          • #6
            Things to keep in mind. Skeptics have pointed out there is not enough heat in the interior of Mars to maintain a liquid state in such lakes. Therefore, the water would have to be salt water. That much seems certain. However, it may be more akin to slush. Also, in order for there to be enough salt, to maintain a liquid state 1 km beneath the surface, the salt content may be prohibitively high to allow life as we know it. On Earth, briny water can sustain life, but when too briny, life is not found. So, with this report, the dissenting points of view are to be expected. The two big qualifiers: how can this be in liquid form on Mars, is it more likely to be in a slush form, and if a great deal of salt is required to maintain a liquid state, would that much salt even allow for life. Any mistakes I am making here, based on what I’ve read so far, can be corrected by Roger I’m sure.

            Show and tell. From my collection, two slices of the Zagami, Nigeria meteorite, which fell in Zagami on Oct. 3rd, 1962. Came somewhat close to beaning a guy when it fell. Zagami is a Martian meteorite, meaning it originated on Mars, was knocked off of Mars by an impact event, achieved escape velocity from the gravity of Mars, attained an orbit around the sun, and eventually intersected Earth’s orbit, and fell to Earth as a meteorite. So, you too can own a piece of Mars. And the moon, and asteroids.....



            A vein of the shock glass described at the above link is visible at the top of the smaller slice seen below. It’s not the dark straight line at the very top, that is not a vein, but a shadow. It’s the faint vein crossing diagonally from the top right to the left edge of the slice.

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            Edit: well, I can do better than that where photos are concerned. So here is a better image of the Zagami meteorite, a piece of Mars one can hold in one’s hand. It’s a type of Mars meteorite known as a Shergotitte, one of 3 main types of Martian meteorites....

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            Last edited by CMD; 09-29-2020, 09:55 AM.
            Rhode Island

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            • Hal Gorges
              Hal Gorges commented
              Editing a comment
              Very cool info, I’m always interested, and watch anything Mars related, Thanks.., my friend had a rock shop, and a couple of nice meteors, I was always on the lookout , but never found one.....that’s a nice specimen.

          • #7
            You have it exactly right about the scepticism for the lakes Charlie. Jack Holt from the science team for the Mars Shallow Radar sounder (SHARAD) on NASA’s Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter went further to say that, even for salty lakes: “There is not enough heat flow to support a brine here, even under the ice cap.”




            I also have a small piece of Zagami. It’s a highly interesting meteorite in relation to our ability to propose a home crater for it. It landed as an 18Kg piece, which probably had a mass of at least 150Kg at the time it hit our atmosphere. People often sceptically ask me: “so how do you know it’s from Mars?”

            The Zagami meteorite has been classified as an ‘SNC’ – one of a small group of ‘achondrite’ meteorites, which contain no native metal in the form of ‘chondrules’ that are characteristic of other stony meteorites. The metals present exhibit a high oxidation state. The term ‘SNC’ derives from three representative members of the group found at Shergotty in India, Nakhla in Egypt and Chassigny in France. Although they have a diverse range of compositions, SNC’s have been proven to be derived from the same parent body, which we are now certain was the planet Mars.

            All differentiated stony meteorites (apart from a small number which are of lunar origin) date to around 4.5 billion years (the generally accepted age of our solar system) and derive from asteroid bodies left over after the formation of our solar system. Subsequent analysis indicated that this meteorite was different. Although the molten magma from which it formed could be dated to 4.55 billion years, it had solidified a mere 180 million years ago, and in a low gravity environment (the gravity on Mars is about 1/3 that of the earth).

            SNC’s exhibit a very wide range of crystallization ages which suggests that they must have formed on a large, geologically active, planet-sized body. Smaller asteroidal bodies (a few hundreds of km in diameter) cooled within about the first ten million years of their formation and could not have generated rocks exhibiting recent metamorphic activity. Their composition and geology indicates that SNC’s have crystallized from large bodies of silicate belt with successive periods of crystal growth which have fractionated the remaining molten material.

            The conclusive proof of Martian origin has accumulated in the 1990’s. In the particular case of Zagami, it can be demonstrated, amongst other things, that: its water content (0.045%) has a Deuterium/Hydrogen ratio consistent with the Martian atmosphere; it includes microscopic glassy bubbles containing trapped gases (Argon, Krypton, Xenon) which have isotopic percentages matching the findings of Viking and Pathfinder missions to Mars; there is a positive match to the basaltic shergottites in the rock known as ‘Bounce Rock’ which was extensively tested by the Mars Exploration Rover on the plains of Meridiani Planum.

            The composition of Zagami is entirely consistent with it being a portion of the basaltic crust of a large planet such as Mars. It also exhibits evidence of a ‘shock event’ some three million years ago, which is taken to be the moment of its ejection from the Martian surface – probably as the result of a large asteroid impact, which catapaulted it into space. There are many craters on Mars which indicate that it has suffered such impacts, but the most promising candidate of the correct age for the source of Zagami is the 10.2km diameter crater Zunil – the most conspicuous crater in the young lava covered Cerberus plains in the Northern hemisphere of Mars. So, this is one of the few meteorites (Martian or otherwise) for which we can make an educated guess for its exact origin.

            This is the Zunil Crater, from which we believe the Zagami meteorite was ejected, with its ejecta field for the material that didn’t escape Mars gravity:

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            And a close-up of part of the crater wall and rim:
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            I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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            • Hal Gorges
              Hal Gorges commented
              Editing a comment
              Wow,, it looks like rain trickledown and wore away the edges...I’m amazed,Thanks Roger.

            • CMD
              CMD commented
              Editing a comment
              That’s very cool, Roger. Glad I brought up Zagami. I did not know the information about this crater.

          • #8
            The first images of the planet were taken by the "Mariner-9" spacecraft in 1972. They showed that there was still water on the surface of Mars, since there are a large number of channels that are similar in structure to the river system on Earth, for example, the Nargal valley, which is shown in the figure. https://prnt.sc/115idya

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            • #9
              Is it even possible to use that water they found?

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              • #10
                Originally posted by cannon_gray View Post
                The first images of the planet were taken by the "Mariner-9" spacecraft in 1972. They showed that there was still water on the surface of Mars, since there are a large number of channels that are similar in structure to the river system on Earth, for example, the Nargal valley, which is shown in the figure. https://prnt.sc/115idya
                Not exactly. What those images of the Nirgal Vallis told us is that liquid water flowed on the surface of Mars in its early history. We now have an abundance of evidence for that all over Mars in features that primarily date to the Noachian period between about 3.7 to 4 billion years ago. The Nirgal Vallis has an estimated age of between 3.5 to 4 billion years and has seen no running water since then.

                The surface of Mars as we know it today is a cold and dry desert with a thin atmosphere not capable of stabilizing liquid water on its surface. What those ancient water-related features tell us is that Mars must once have had a much higher temperature and a much thicker atmosphere than it does today, but we don’t know why or how.

                One possibility is outgassing of carbon dioxide from the interior of the planet as its crust formed, supplemented by carbon dioxide from later large-scale tectonic activity and the formation of huge volcanoes such as those in the Tharsis region. That could have created a greenhouse gas atmospheric environment with a much higher surface temperature. Carbon dioxide is the most abundant component of the thin atmosphere Mars has today but, if a thicker atmosphere of carbon dioxide once existed, the mystery is where did it go?

                Planets can lose their atmospheres by escape processes such as sputtering and ion escape but not at a rate fast enough to explain such a dramatic loss on Mars. Even if you add in the likelihood that Mars lost its protective magnetic field early in its history. The carbon dioxide could have converted to carbonates but such deposits are not commonly seen on the surface of Mars. It’s possible that the remaining carbon dioxide could be buried as undiscovered carbonate deposits in the Martian crust, or in a large carbonate reservoir below the surface.

                What happened to the liquid water on Mars is less of a mystery. There’s accumulating evidence that, although some of it was stripped away by solar radiation as the atmosphere thinned out, a potentially larger amount was lost by geologic entrapment. That is, it’s now chemically trapped in hydrated minerals and mineral clays which appear to be abundant on its surface. The remainder is now locked up in the polar ice caps and possible ice deposits buried below the surface, but not as liquid water. Underground brine lakes and aquifers is a long-shot for which the thermodynamics of the planet don’t really support the possibility that these could still be liquid beyond a semi-frozen slush.
                I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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