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  • Paleoamerican Oddessy picture thread

    Good morning, It's going to take me some time between calls, but I'll post all of my pictures from the Santa Fe conference this past weekend. There were a couple of other people there, so hopefully they'll add their pictures to the thread as well!
    This is Bruce Bradley's display of pieces that he feels are the gap between Solutrean & Clovis. I was skeptical of the connections before, but he & Stanford have a lot more evidence than I realized. Pretty cool stuff, and they've certainly done their homework.

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    Florida material

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    Some additional Older-than-Clovis (OTC) material.

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    The real Rutz Clovis (not a cast that will be shown later.) Very, very, very cool relic.

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    A little Hogeye for you in the morning. (The Hogeye Cache from Texas.)

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    Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 07:59 AM.
    Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

  • #2
    Some stemmed points from Idaho that are OTC (Older-than-Clovis, last time I use both terms.)

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    The Mesa site collection from Alaska, again OTC.

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    The Putu and Bedwell groups from Alaska, OTC.

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    Just a quick view of the room less than half the room.

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    Some fluted points from Alaska, these are not as old as Clovis and might represent some of the youngest true fluted points.  If Clovis were a single group of people, these probably would have been the last of them.

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    More Alaska, there are almost no private collections of this material (you need a helicopter, a refueling stop, and support team to get to these Artic sites) so I took lots of pictures because you won't see it again anytime soon.

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    Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 08:04 AM.
    Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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    • #3
      More Alaska-  Some really old microblade technology that is similar to Japanese and Siberian technologies.

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      A shot that shows some of the range of pre-Clovis to post-Clovis in Alaska.

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      One of my favorite shots, some of the material from Fell's Cave down in Chile. This site was excavated a couple of years after Clovis (Blackwater Draw) was discovered back in the 1930's. They are in the Smithsonian, and it's rare to get to see even casts of the points in person. (They are on display in two museums behind thick glass.)

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      A little OTC from the Johnson Site in Tennessee.

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      More OTC from the Smithsonian collections.

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      Cactus Hill on the Right, and on the left are two of the earliest, most well dated sites in the Solutrean/Clovis connection theory.

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      Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 08:34 AM.
      Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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      • #4
        Casts that Stanford -and- Bradley put together to show the similarities between the super large Solutrean caches and the Clovis caches. I originally thought this was a significant piece of their evidence, and thought it was weak at best. They have a lot more to go on than this. But it's still pretty darn cool to see.

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        Part of the collection from Oregon.

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        Some of Jim Cox's paleo collection.

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        You can see where I had to wipe the drool off the glass.

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        Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 08:43 AM.
        Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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        • #5
          Great stuff, Joshua. It must have been information overload, but I envy anyone who was able to attend. Did you obtain the conference volume? Also, in the first photos, there are 7 bipoints shown. Were those all found off shore, one of them being the Cinmar? I know they had one that was in a Providence, RI collection they were including in their inventory of such pieces.
          Thanks for the photos, looking forward to more photos and impressions.....
          Rhode Island

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          • #6
            Check out the flaking on the point on the third from the left. Some of the finest edge work I have ever seen.

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            More from the Cox collection.

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            A new frame of old material, and an old frame of old material.

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            Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 08:51 AM.
            Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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            • #7
              Colorado site material.

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              Bad picture, but check out that flaking.

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              Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 08:56 AM.
              Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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              • #8
                Close up of some of the pieces.

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                Gault site material.
                Clovis on top, Older than Clovis on the bottom.

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                Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 09:08 AM.
                Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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                • #9
                  Just a couple of archaeological stragglers looking at my material... :woohoo: Seriously, in my couple of decades of serious collecting, having these guys spend time going through my stuff and get excited about it was one of the cooler things I've had happen. Bradley came back around while I was packing up and spent about 45 minutes going through things, identifying pieces, lining up pieces by stage of manufacture, etc.

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                  I also took a couple of my US pieces to see if I could get confirmations of what they are.
                  My ultrathin compared to one of Jim Cox's.  A couple of the best Folsom guys think it is a Folsom ultrathin, it came from a farm collection in Indiana (right at the edge of the range.)

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                  It's the top piece in this frame.

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                  Here is one of the Smithsonian Fell's Cave pieces on the left, and one of mine on the right. The Fell's Cave point is from the far south of Chile, and mine is from the northern most point of South America (4600 miles strait line.)  To put that in to context, it's a couple of hundred miles farther than Point Barrow Alaska to Key West, Florida (4300 miles.)

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                  Last edited by painshill; 04-18-2020, 09:15 AM.
                  Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    CMD wrote:

                    Great stuff, Joshua. It must have been information overload, but I envy anyone who was able to attend. Did you obtain the conference volume? Also, in the first photos, there are 7 bipoints shown. Were those all found off shore, one of them being the Cinmar? I know they had one that was in a Providence, RI collection they were including in their inventory of such pieces.
                    Thanks for the photos, looking forward to more photos and impressions.....
                      Yes, I got the conference volume. I haven't flipped through it yet, but it's about the size of a big school text book.
                    The Cinmar was there, as were several others.  I was doubtful of how the story of the Cinmar could have survived with a fisherman who obviously didn't collect or care about arrowheads.  He found the pieces in a load with bones.  On a second pass it damaged his equipment, so he wrote it on his map -and- log.  The harbormaster also had notes on a map he kept of fouled nets, with an indicator that bones were found there.  There was a third map that a state inspector had that also indicated that nets had been tangled up there.  The site really was that far off the shore.  The odds of it being an archaic biface that was lost by archaic maritime fishermen fishing far from their homeland to the north, and that the lost biface happened to fall out, sink and land on a iceage mammoth deposit is a quadzillion to one chance.
                    The broken one is thought to be Grand Pressigny flint from France, and is the second one they have. (The first was found under a Colonial-era fire place and could have been brought over by a colonist.)  They have a couple of sites off shore, and a few more on shore.  The big gap for me was always the thousands of years between Solutrean and Clovis, and they have enough dates now in the region that you can connect the dots without a 5,000 year gap of nothing.  I'm not 100% convinced that the Solutreans became Clovis, but I'm reasonably comfortable that they made it Maryland.
                    Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thank you!! Great pic's! I am envious to say the least.
                      Look to the ground for it holds the past!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Great comments and awesome photographs!
                        Years ago, when I first heard Drs. Stanford's and Bradley's theory along with all of the similarities between Clovis and Solutrean artifacts, that started me thinking. 
                        The fact that so many Solutrean points have been found on the Delmarva Peninsula proves the Solutreans were here.
                        Now that Drs. Stanford and Bradley have found enough evidence to close one remaining obstacle, the time gap between Clovis and Solutrean, I believe the origin of Clovis is now clear.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Bill,
                          I'm not all of the way there with Clovis, but I'm a lot closer than I was.
                          They've done a great job of showing that the Cinmar blade comes from a site dating to around 27,000 years old (peat cores from the area that is currently 74 meters below sea level.)  And they have geologists who explained how a site that deep was actually on the surface during the height of the glaciers during pre-clovis times.  (The weight of the glaciers causes a wave of land and this site would have been on the bubble back then.) Geologists open a specific window, peat dates from cores near there prove it was a bog (fresh water, not salt water) during that window and only during that window.  The back up evidence from the fisherman, maps, etc. help make a strong case for the age of that site.  And then they have several sites on land that take it from 26,000 to about 14,000 years BP, all with the same technology.  I'm good up to that point.
                          The actual leap from Solutrean to Cactus Hill to Clovis is where there just isn't great data yet. Clovis appeared and covered all 48 states, parts of Canada, half of Mexico, and according to Bradley at least one area in South America within a couple hundred years.  Clovis now appears to have been "born", spread and died within 400 years (some said as little as 250 years.  But the Solutreans spent the better part of 10,000 years in a small area of the eastern seaboard, why didn't they interact and spread?  They weren't boxed in by glaciers.  What made Clovis tech rocket around the new world so quickly?  The other interesting part was that the fishtails in South America are as old as Clovis.  So how did two similar looking points, pop up and spread so quickly?
                          It must have been like one of those flash mobs where the Solutrean organized all of these random groups to just suddenly implement fluted point technology all at once, and then to just stop and go back to normal a couple of generations later.
                          Just my initial observations, I'm still digesting and reading the full articles that the people put out with the data.
                          Joshua
                          Hong Kong, but from Indiana/Florida

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                          • #14
                            All very interesting. Not sure I can make that leap. There seems to be more questions than answers. But I will say the debate is not at all going away at all, and will remain a subject of many discussions in the future.
                              That is one event I really wanted to attend and will at least hear about it from a few friends I know that were in attendance.
                            I really enjoy seeing all the pic's, Joshua.  Again Thank you!
                            Look to the ground for it holds the past!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The way "Clovis" spread so far so fast, can be explained in two ways and I really like the first one!
                              1. Not all fluted points are Solutrean/Clovis at all. The Solutrean/Clovis technology was based upon 
                                 Outre' Passe'(Overshot percussion) platform preparation. The technology of Solutrean/Clovis is the 
                                 culture. When other folks saw, or heard what excellent hunters the Solutrean/Clovis people were they
                                 began copying them. Therefore Fluting caught on and spread like wildfire for around 200 years because   
                                 every  hunter who had seen of had heard about the advantage of fluted points tried to make them too. 
                              2.)"Clovis" Fluting was started by local folks somewhere in the U.S.A. and as other people saw an hafting
                                  advantage in fluting the bases of projectiles for around 200 years fluting caught on with a vengence. 
                              Take your pick. Since #1 centers the development of fluting on the Solutrean technological masters then it seems natural and logical they were the ones who incorporated this technique into their technology.

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