Turtle authentic?

[JR]

This was in a frame I got from a local old timer. It was with several obviously authentic points. He said it came from Missouri, and his uncle gave it to him. It seems an awful lot like an "authentic" "thunderbird" effigy to me though,what does every one think? Fake? Real?



.??

[OnewiththewilD]

i think your right on turtle, not thunderbird.

[JR]

Right, but there is no such thing as an authentic thunderbird. Ever see a real turtle? I found a pic of one in a book by lar hothem and that's it.

Mine real?

[Olden]

.
Looks like a beaver-tailed snapper to me JR. Nice Patina: just wondering if bleach would artificially weather mud-stone?
After seeing Ron's fine example, I'd say it's probably real.

[G10+]

Lmao ,,, can't really say for sure
But if u decide to do like Charlie and throw it out let me have It first!!!

[CliffJ]

The turtles are from the modern makers of the flint fish hooks and thunderbirds. I have a bunch from 1950-60s collections that were in old frames together. Some of mine are in one of Bennett's books. I believe they were sold at gun shows etc back in the day. You can't believe everything in Hothem's books.

[painshill]

This seems to another of those areas where - although the real thing does exist, but is rare - it would be a carved item not a knapped one (as is the case for the few thunderbirds recovered from archaeological contexts).

[firefighterscraper]

I have a bear! Ha!

[pkfrey]

The assumption is that if an artifact is pictured in a popular book, it MUST be authentic. Not true, and one thing that must always be kept in mind, is that just because an artifact is pictured in a book by a popular author, that doesn't automatically make that artifact authentic. I could list hundreds of artifacts, from these effigies to Clovis points, some even with a COA, that are pictured in some book, that are absolutely modern, fake, or reproduction.

[rmartin]

Cliff and Pkfrey are absolutely right about pictured items. Hothem books do contain fake pieces...I know this for a fact. I really don't care to point them out but they are there. JR, I really think your turtle is a figment of a modern knapper's imagination as Cliff pointed out.

[JR]

Yah,like a thunderbird after all,that's kinda what I figured!