Painted stone

[josalba]

Hello,

First of all, I wanted to congratulate you on the magnificent forum you have.

I would like you to confirm the time of this European painted stone (I think it is from the Magdalenian or Azilian)

Thanks.

[painshill]

Welcome to AH.com and thanks for the kind words.

One thing you will find here is that folks will say it as they see it, as honestly as possible and in the most helpful manner they can.

Unfortunately, that leads me to say that I don't see anything about this stone which suggests it has been painted by anyone, whether Magdalenian, Azilian or any other culture.

It's always a good idea to say where you found an item and the circumstances in which you found it to help us with context... but that looks to me like a water-polished cobble with some natural geological staining.

[painshill]

Typical Azilian painted pebble (note that it has no stylistic resemblance to yours):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azilian#/media/File:Galet_peint_MHNT.PRE.2006.0.93.jpg

Please Google "pareidolia".

Why did you decline to respond with where you found these stones and in what circumstances?

[Cecilia]

You are brutal and so true!

[painshill]

I bought them within a lot on an auction website. I don't know exactly where they come from.

Fair enough... but what did the seller say about them? What country was the seller based in?? What else was in the lot??? Surely you didn't just buy a bunch of stones from an unknown location without at least some suggestion about what they were, or were claimed to be????

[Hal Gorges]

I’d like to see the rest of the rocks, what country do you live in?

[CMD]

I don’t know if your stones are quartzite, but I have quartzite cobble hammerstones, from Rhode Island, that have very similar staining on them....

[painshill]

Good afternoon, I would like to know if there is someone in the forum who collects this type of painted songs. Because, at the moment, I have not met anyone and I would like to share experiences and be able to talk about it.

If there is, I’m sure they’ll respond.



However, in Europe, painted stones are rare and the majority of them are in museums, not private collections. I’m referring to the Painted Pebble Culture of the Upper Palaeolithic, which is principally the Azilian of Northern Spain and Southern France (around 10,000 to 14,000 years ago). We also have the exclusively NE Scotland Pictish painted pebbles produced between about 3^rd to 8^th Century, of which there are only 55 documented examples.

If these are the kinds of stones you mean, then your question is a bit like asking if there’s anyone here who collects Rembrandt sketches.

Further afield, painted stones exist in many other cultures… aboriginal Australia for example, where you can’t take them out of the country, and Africa (usually from the Neolithic) where they don’t exist in sufficient numbers that they would warrant a collector specialising in them.

North American also has instances of painted pebbles and decorated stones from various cultures and which are more readily available to collectors. I recall we have had a few finds posted in the past.

What I fear, is that you are being swayed by things you have read or seen on various “Portable Rock Art” sites and blogs about so-called effigies, carved decorated stones and painted stones claimed to be ancient. Just be aware that the majority of these sites are discussing things for which there is no support from the archaeological community and in most cases relate to stones with natural geological features... not man-made artefacts. These sites nevertheless have their misguided followers… plus a huge number of scammers who peddle the same spurious stuff on eBay at ridiculous prices.

[Hoss]

Thanks for the clarification.

I bought them within a lot on an auction website. I don't know exactly where they come from.

You are already of an opinion they are Azillian when you do not have a clue as to where they were found. You found them in a on line auction. Zero provenance or provenience. You will be hard pressed to convince someone that these are actually Azillian.

Many quartz cobbles are found in cultivated fields with disc marks on them. As the disc would scrape them it would leave some iron which in turn will become oxidized. I have many found back in CT and they are similar to your examples and CMD's example.

[painshill]

Great picture 'josalba', which only serves to confirm that your stones are not pieces of Azilian art. Can you not see the difference between a few random splodges and the characteristic and obvious patterns that characterise Azilian art? That's a rhetorical question, since you obviously can't. There is also no archaeological instance of the Azilian culture painting 'stick men'.



Azilian painted pebbles from the cave of Le Mas d'Azil.
Copyright Wellcome Collection. Creative Commons license.

https://wellcomeimages.org/indexplus/obf_images/4e/ae/b742fec402ec2067f35064ef7f48.jpg

If you are prepared to believe that a few naturally-created random marks on a stone are Azilian art, and seemingly prepared to pay hard cash for such stones, then please provide your PayPal account details and let me know how many tonnes you want. My prices are very reasonable.

[Cecilia]

You are bad!🤓

[painshill]

These are two other stones that I have

Purchased from the same eBay source? How many of these did you buy? What else was in the lot?

[painshill]

Yes, same lot. There was also a biface and a scraper. And something else that I don't remember right now (quite a long time ago).

Getting information from you is like pulling teeth. How many of these stones did you buy??? Are they all similar?

[josalba]

Getting information from you is like pulling teeth. How many of these stones did you buy??? Are they all similar?

Painted stones as I mentioned above were 4. This would be about 2010 more or less.

[painshill]

What do you think of the other two?

Not much frankly. I disagree with your assessment that these might be anciently created 'designs' produced by human hand. None of the markings have a convincing resemblance to anything I've ever seen in the world of artefacts. Without provenance, provenience or context, they're nothing more than stones in my opinion.

[CMD]

I think there is something we can all cover about and that is, these types of marks on the stones are man-made.

More complex question is to know the period to which they correspond. I tell you from experience that plows do not leave this type of marks on the stones.

They are painted, that's 100% safe. The possibility that they are natural oxide formations is also ruled out, since in many of them, a fine and precise trace can be observed, that, in no way can it be done accidentally or naturally.

These are two other stones that I have:

The larger of the two stones I showed does have light colored scars from farm machinery strikes. The darker stains are not caused by a plow, they are natural stains. The smaller of the two stones I showed even has an X on one side. Someone might mistakenly think the X was painted on, but it’s natural staining. I just looked, enlarged the stone showing two crossed lines that you present, and, boy, does the staining look similar, if not identical. And, in the case of your example of two crossed lines, they also look like natural staining.

[josalba]

In Spain, these types of marks, archaeologists and paleontologists, are identifying them as man-made. I have uploaded some clippings of articles, but there are countless of them that support what I affirm.

I have read a few articles and none of them talk about the possibility that they are marks made by tractors, accidentally or naturally.

[antmike915]

I know I'm a little late but josalba you would be surprised at some of the designs of either natural staining and plow strikes will leave on rocks.... anyways kind of curious about the biface and the scraper, got any pictures of them?