Clovis ?

[Popsgun]

Hi:
I'm not a collector.  My wife found this on a creek bank in NE Oklahoma a few weeks ago.
Clovis I think.  Any comments would be appreciated.
   Attached files 
 

[Hoss]

can you take a better picture and put something in there for scale like a ruler or a coin?

[Adena]

Hello and welcome. That is a very nice point, but unfortunately not a Clovis. The thickness, flaking and various other things just aren't right for Clovis.  Not sure what kind it is tho. Still a very nice find and tell your wife to keep looking. 

[rmartin]

I agree with Adena. It doesn't look Clovis to me either for the very reasons she gave

[Oklahomuh]

Adena wrote:

Hello and welcome. That is a very nice point, but unfortunately not a Clovis. The thickness, flaking and various other things just aren't right for Clovis.  Not sure what kind it is tho. Still a very nice find and tell your wife to keep looking. 

  I'm curious to know what specifics you observe regarding the "thickness, flaking, and 'various other things'" so as to arrive at your conclusion.  Ambiguous statements are often resultant of irresponsible, lazy science... or simply assertions of unqualified individuals, which stand to cloud the scientific progress of a greater, diligent research community. I don't think that's what's happening here... I'm only curious to read in more detail what you're seeing, and what governing rubric you are employing against your observations... I'm not trying to question you -- I'm just eager to learn... I'm just starting out in this field of study... I don't know a thing...

[Hoss]

[QUOTE]Oklahomuh wrote:

Hello and welcome. That is a very nice point, but unfortunately not a Clovis. The thickness, flaking and various other things just aren't right for Clovis.  Not sure what kind it is tho. Still a very nice find and tell your wife to keep looking. 

  I'm curious to know what specifics you observe regarding the "thickness, flaking, and 'various other things'" so as to arrive at your conclusion.  Ambiguous statements are often resultant of irresponsible, lazy science... or simply assertions of unqualified individuals, which stand to cloud the scientific progress of a greater, diligent research community. I don't think that's what's happening here... I'm only curious to read in more detail what you're seeing, and what governing rubric you are employing against your observations... I'm not trying to question you -- I'm just eager to learn... I'm just starting out in this field of study... I don't know a thing...
  Well this is an interesting introduction for a first post. You seem to own quite the Vocabulary don't you? So let me ask you  John Adams or Watson Knott or  Oklahomuh or what ever you secret name is? You cannot spell Oklahoma.
I believe Adena is correct and perhaps she meant width of the point and not thickness. To me I was feeling like it could be a Dalton  Here is a picture of one in my collection that is from Osage Co OK.I am taking the picture now with a 16 foot stanley tape measure to show my point looks even wider than the one shown by Popsgun. Now I asked for better pictures because these pictures shown are not very good and the point shown by Popsgun seems to have a lot of river tumble to it and damage at the base. The base is a diagnostic feature as well as basal grinding. Basal grinding is a smoothing of the lateral and proximal edges of the point base. Because of the river tumbled look can it in fact be determined on this specimen? I am not certain it can because of so much apparent  damage.
So what ever your name is lets get back to you shall we? I do not know you . But your approach here is not conducive to someone eager to learn. I frequently have to smash someone with the ban hammer just because their behavior is  intimidating and over the top even somewhat troll like. I will how ever give pause because of your lack of knowledge for  forum etiquette  I will allow you to  add an  apology to the good people of this forum  for your brash behavior in this post and we can certainly move on . Of course your other option is to keep up your smart alec attitude and this will not take very long at all.

Popsgun we really want to help you out sorry for this happening from this other person. If you need some advbice on how to take better pictures let me know I will try and help you out. If your using a camera phone there may not be much I can advise except clean the lens. If a camera try using the macro setting and take the picture outdoors using  indirect sunlight. I hope you can share some better pictures soon

[Popsgun]

Hi again.  Thanks for the comments.  I changed the pics.  I think they are better but still not as good as I would like. I hope they clear up some of your questions.
The point is quiet worn I know.  It was found in an area of the creek that washes often and the gravel bed changes all the time.  It has probably been washing for a very long time.
If it did not have the "flutes", I think they are called, the chipped area on the sides near the base, I would probably just thought it was a rock sort of shaped like an arrow head.
Thanks for your interest.

[Hoss]

These new pictures are much better. Correct me if I am wrong but that long narrow thinning flake is on both sides of the point?  I am leaning more toward Dalton,  not the best of condition  but still a very cool find you got there.  Thanks for the show

[Popsgun]

Yes it is on both sides.  I had a lot of trouble get pictures with enough definition to show it on both sides.  As you said, it is badly worn.
Thanks

[dirt kicker]

I agree with hoss, a beat up dalton. You can still see some serrations and daltons  often were re sharpend with serrations.

[OBION]

Your new pics look good,  that was a good idea to use the black sand or maybe cutting grit to stand the point on its side!  :welcome:

[Popsgun]

It is interesting what the camera did with the background which is nothing more the a piece of black felt material.  To do the edge shot I just put the point it a bunched up wrinkle.  The camera did strange things with the felt on edge.   I have a nice Cannon but I could not get it to do what I wanted so, I reverted to my phone, Galaxy S4, which has a 13 MP cam.  It actually worked better than my "nice" Cannon.  I give up.....
Many thanks.  I appreciate the comments and the education.

[sneakygroundbuzzard]

im gonna have to agree with the others
i very beat up dalton
hoss that one you posted the pic of is a beauty
i would love to find one of them
daltons are one of my favorite point/blade styles to make
mostly because i suck at making notches lol

[Oklahomuh]

[QUOTE]Hoss wrote:

[quote=Oklahomuh post=132189]

Hello and welcome. That is a very nice point, but unfortunately not a Clovis. The thickness, flaking and various other things just aren't right for Clovis.  Not sure what kind it is tho. Still a very nice find and tell your wife to keep looking. 

  I'm curious to know what specifics you observe regarding the "thickness, flaking, and 'various other things'" so as to arrive at your conclusion.  Ambiguous statements are often resultant of irresponsible, lazy science... or simply assertions of unqualified individuals, which stand to cloud the scientific progress of a greater, diligent research community. I don't think that's what's happening here... I'm only curious to read in more detail what you're seeing, and what governing rubric you are employing against your observations... I'm not trying to question you -- I'm just eager to learn... I'm just starting out in this field of study... I don't know a thing...
  Well this is an interesting introduction for a first post. You seem to own quite the Vocabulary don't you? So let me ask you  John Adams or Watson Knott or  Oklahomuh or what ever you secret name is? You cannot spell Oklahoma.
I believe Adena is correct and perhaps she meant width of the point and not thickness. To me I was feeling like it could be a Dalton  Here is a picture of one in my collection that is from Osage Co OK.I am taking the picture now with a 16 foot stanley tape measure to show my point looks even wider than the one shown by Popsgun. Now I asked for better pictures because these pictures shown are not very good and the point shown by Popsgun seems to have a lot of river tumble to it and damage at the base. The base is a diagnostic feature as well as basal grinding. Basal grinding is a smoothing of the lateral and proximal edges of the point base. Because of the river tumbled look can it in fact be determined on this specimen? I am not certain it can because of so much apparent  damage.
So what ever your name is lets get back to you shall we? I do not know you . But your approach here is not conducive to someone eager to learn. I frequently have to smash someone with the ban hammer just because their behavior is  intimidating and over the top even somewhat troll like. I will how ever give pause because of your lack of knowledge for  forum etiquette  I will allow you to  add an  apology to the good people of this forum  for your brash behavior in this post and we can certainly move on . Of course your other option is to keep up your smart alec attitude and this will not take very long at all.
Popsgun we really want to help you out sorry for this happening from this other person. If you need some advbice on how to take better pictures let me know I will try and help you out. If your using a camera phone there may not be much I can advise except clean the lens. If a camera try using the macro setting and take the picture outdoors using  indirect sunlight. I hope you can share some better pictures soon
I have autism spectrum disorder, which often causes me to struggle with understanding the feelings of others... This is undeniably one of the most humiliating and frustrating facets of my autism... It is very embarrassing, and something I try to make go away, for the sake of others... I should have known better than to try to post...
I apologize for being insensitive to Popsgun, and hope my sincerity is perceptible...

Re: Oklahomuh
Following the Civil War, delegates from the 5 Civilized Tribes traveled to Washington D.C. to resume formal relationships with the US government.  During the meeting, federal officials proposed the creation of an Indian Territory.  Choctaw delegate Rev. Allen Wright suggested naming it "Oklahumma" (Meserve 1941:319).

[Hoss]

You are welcome to post here but please try to be respectful of others. Like I said I do not know you. We as a group do not know you. You choice of words for a very first post were akin to inciting the group to riot.  I am glad that did not happen.
This point is not even your point and you came off as being very defensive. Apology accepted.  I would like to extend an apology to you  to about the jab about spelling Oklahmuh wrong.
I hope you enjoy our site amd welcome