Detecting is fun. Detecting with friends is even better.

[2ndoldman]

This week has been a ton of fun.
Two out of town friends both decided to stop by at the same time.
Ralph (all the way from Grand Prairie Alberta) had been to the Fraser Valley treasure hunt.
He picked up a brand new CZ21 from one of the site sponsors while he was there.
And since he had packed his new scoop in the van,
what better way to break both in than a couple of different beach hunts on the island.
Here he is trying out both for the very first time.
This beach has been picked over may times before but there is always something left to find.
My trash haul was small. And so was my supposed keeper pile. As the tide was starting to come in on the coast it was time to head inland for a beach hunt of a different kind.
Ralph wanted to try hunting in the Gorge and what better place to take him than Penny Beach.
The very first thing we did was stop off at my pantry.
And he couldn't get enough of these blackberries.
I caught him sneaking out of the water at least 5 times to hit the bush.
Detecting in the primordial soup of the Gorge can be extremely challenging,
even when the water is less than 2 feet deep.
The stirred up muck is so thick that you might as well try detecting with your eyes closed.
Here is the take for the two of us that afternoon and my cleaned up bits from earlier in the day.
There was nothing very special for the day but it was a fun day none the less.
A pewter broach or pendant piece. A gold plated copper ring. A worn 47 quarter.

[2ndoldman]

And a really worn 34 British penny. Were the best of the day for me.


ET may have gone home. But Ralph was able to stick around for another couple of days.
The next day dawned bright and sunny and while waiting for the crew to arrive for a bit of a group hunt,
I was treated to an aerial display by this pair of hawks. Once the crew arrived it was all business for the next 6 hours.
Everyone manage at least one keeper for the day.
But I got two.
The first was this.
And this was the second.
Or maybe I should say second and third.
Why these two sweethearts wanted my ugly mug in the picture is beyond me.
Say hello the Judith (Victoria BC) on the left and Teresa (from Powell River BC) on the right.
The next day I was flying solo for most of the morning but Teresa managed to stop by for a bit
to see what penny beach was all about.
Thankfully I had a few things in the basket to show her.
FYI the large brass plug was found the day before on the group hunt.


I wish that the lamp had come out whole,
but it took 4 scoops to retrieve the entire thing.
This is what it looked like fresh out of the water.

[2ndoldman]

The chevron will go into the military collection. And the little guy was just simply fun to see in the scoop. I put the bullet next to the British penny to give you a sense of the size of it.
It is 34 millimeters long and 12 millimeters in diameter.
Does anyone know what type of rifle it is from?
This was a real heart breaker of a find as I am sure that the rest of it is out there still.
I had rushed to shore to answer a call from Ralph.
In the process I had left my scoop in the water to mark a target that still needed to come out.
On the way back to the scoop a penny signal showed under the coil.
Reaching into the muck with my hand this came out in the very first grab.
Try as I might no bowl was to be felt or found.
Later in the day Ralph and I hooked up for a 2 hour clad hunt.
My gas was covered. And some silver bling was saved.

[2ndoldman]

Detecting with friends can be fun.
But knowing the guys in your area and where they hunt can be frustrating to say the least.
Both Ralph and I spent a good portion of our time on Tuesday digging trash.
Now that is not unusual.
But half or more of this trash. Was still either in the hole or just beside it.
And to say that I am disappointed in the holes that were left behind is an understatement.
I didn't start taking pictures until after fixing about 30 of these.
These were dug less than a week prior and how much time does it really take to crush dry dirt.
I will not name any names here but PMs have been sent.
And to let you guys who did this know. You did leave a couple of nice things behind in these holes.
And yes Ralph and I took the time to stomp the dirt back into some semblance of being presentable. Sorry for being so long winded on this post guys.
I fought with myself as to how I was going to approach this one for several days.

[Scorpion68]

A most excellent post Bruce. Thanks so much for introducing us to your friends. I'd have trouble separating myself from the blackberries also and I do when I hunt next to them. They're great thirst quenchers. Believe it or not but these old eyes actually picked out both hawks in your photo. It's a great insitu. As always Bruce you've provided quite a bit of entertainment which is always appreciated. Thanks for sharing. ...Chuck

[2ndoldman]

Thank you Chuck.
I have always felt self conscious posting my finds in an arrowhead forum so I always try to keep my post entertaining.

[sailorjoe]

It is very interesting all the different kinds of things you find. The trash I can understand. But if I understand correctly you guys were detecting in the water. I'm wondering how does all that stuff get lost in the water? There is everything from toys to insignias to jewelry to coins and even bullets. And some of it cleans up surprisingly well. And I forgot just where is it you live? Is it in Vancouver or on Vancouver Island near Victoria? And in some of your posts I think you refer to a gorge. Is that somewhere on the Fraser River? I ask these questions because I have traveled in that area of BC (both the island and mainland) a few times and it helps me to appreciate more what you are doing when I can imagine your surroundings.

[2ndoldman]

Joe, I live in Victoria on Vancouver Island. The "Gorge " is a 5 kilometer long inlet of the ocean.
Victoria was first established as a Hudsons Bay trading post in the mid 1840s . The Gorge itself has been used as a travel way/ playground/ dumping ground ever since.
There are actually 3 different tide charts to look at for the Gorge depending on the location. The Gorge narrows at Tillicum Road and there is a reversing falls at this point, the incoming tide overcomes the still emptying upper Gorge at this point. The unusual look of the brass finds is due to the saltwater, all I do is tumble the crud off and take pictures. If you Google Craigflower Manor you will get a sense of the history of the area I am currently working in.
Thank you for the questions Joe. I hope that it have given you the answers you were looking for.

[painshill]

Quote: It is 34 millimeters long and 12 millimeters in diameter. Does anyone know what type of rifle it is from?

What it’s from depends to a large extent on how old it might be and whether or not it’s military. It’s a lot harder to identify slugs than cartridge cases. From the dimensions I assume its .45 calibre, for which there are several possibilities dating from the late 1800s into the first half of the 20^th century.

If military, I would guess it’s most likely a British round for a .450 Martini-Henry - developed in 1870 and in use until the end of the 19^th century, before the .303 replaced it. Although still in production up to the 1950s, it had only limited military use up until WWI (mainly by the Royal Flying Corps) and became a popular sporting rifle for medium to large game after the military abandoned it.

The .45 calibre round was also the most common service revolver cartridge up until the end of WWI (and still used to the end of WWII), but that slug is too long for those possibilities.

[2ndoldman]

Quote: It is 34 millimeters long and 12 millimeters in diameter. Does anyone know what type of rifle it is from?

What it’s from depends to a large extent on how old it might be and whether or not it’s military. It’s a lot harder to identify slugs than cartridge cases. From the dimensions I assume its .45 calibre, for which there are several possibilities dating from the late 1800s into the first half of the 20^th century.

If military, I would guess it’s most likely a British round for a .450 Martini-Henry - developed in 1870 and in use until the end of the 19^th century, before the .303 replaced it. Although still in production up to the 1950s, it had only limited military use up until WWI (mainly by the Royal Flying Corps) and became a popular sporting rifle for medium to large game after the military abandoned it.

The .45 calibre round was also the most common service revolver cartridge up until the end of WWI (and still used to the end of WWII), but that slug is too long for those possibilities.

Roger here are two pictures of it and three other mystery rounds that I have found in the same area. This particular area was settled in 1856. I am assuming that the one I posted the question for is likely late 1800s or early 1900s by the knurled grease grooves.The other three are all different and most likely older black powder rounds. I included what I normally refer to as a Martini-Henry 577 round on the right for size comparison.

[2ndoldman]

Now I have to rethink what I was thinking of as a 577 Martini-Henry round Roger.
I went to Wikipedia to check on .450 Martini-Henry And found out that the diameter is 11.6mm, which would match the one I just found.
The ones I have thought were Martini-Henry 557s are a touch over 15mm in diameter.

[painshill]

Hi Bruce

There is potential for confusion here since a single ammunition round can have two calibres… one referring to the cartridge case (relating to the breech requirements) and one referring to the slug (relating to the muzzle requirements).

The Martini-Henry cartridge is such an example. It had a stretched brass “bottle-neck” design as shown in the second and third examples in the picture you found, with the case having a 0.577 inch diameter (14.7 mm) but the slug having a 0.452 inch diameter (11.5mm, with the paper patch taking it to just over 11.6mm).

Although the weapon is sometimes referred to as the .577 Martini-Henry (because of the breech size), it never fired a slug with that diameter. The slug was smaller at 0.452 inches (because of the muzzle size). More correctly, the rifle and the round were both designated as “.577/450 Martini-Henry”.

The large cartridge case diameter was “borrowed” from the earlier .577 Snider-Enfield rifle which fired a cartridge with a non-stretched case because the breech and the muzzle requirements were the same – 0.577 inches (14.7mm). So, if you’re finding slugs with that larger diameter then they likely came from a Snider-Enfield (adopted by the British Army in 1866 and in service until 1874) but certainly not from a Martini-Henry. Anything larger than that will likely be earlier still.

The shouldered “bottle-neck” cartridge was (still is) a way of putting a larger charge behind a more accurate longer but heavier slug with a smaller diameter. Advances in primer and propellant technology ultimately allowed a downsizing of cartridges but the bottle-neck concept was still used. The Martini-Henry was replaced by the Lee-Enfield from 1889 onwards, taking a 0.460 inch (11.68 mm) case with a 0.312 inch (7.92 mm) slug. By this time it was customary to refer to rifles and cartridges according to muzzle requirements, so the cartridge was referred to as “.303 British” and the rifle as “.303 Lee-Enfield”, despite the cartridge case being larger than that.

[2ndoldman]

Thank you Roger. I just looked up the Snider-Enfield 577 and the slugs do match http://www.enfield-snider.com/577%20Bullets.htm
I was unable to find a chart like the one for the Martini-Henry that shows the dimensions and weight but that is ok.

[painshill]

Hi Bruce

Measurements for early cartridges can be a bit of a nightmare. Although they were “standardised”, the assignations are often nominal, with minor variations such that cartridges were interchangeable in the sense that they may still have been useable in guns for which they hadn’t necessarily been designed. As well as various pattern types and progressions within a particular rifle, there were variations in the bullet size/weight, with military rounds often having a different specification (usually a longer and heavier bullet, with a bigger charge).

For example, the standard military round for the Martini-Henry had a 480 grain (31 gram) lead slug, but non-military rounds generally had a 400 grain (26 gram) lead slug.

As regards “older black powder rounds”, both the .577 Snider-Enfield and the .577/450 Martini-Henry used black powder rounds. The British had experimented with smokeless powder but lost interest after explosions at production factories (Faversham in 1847 and Stowmarket in 1871) until safer versions became available in the late 1880s.

The British Army had been using the Enfield Pattern muzzle-loading rifle-musket since 1853 (known as the P53 Enfield). It took a Minié-type slug with a nominal .577 calibre. After extensive trials, they concluded that the bolt-action system invented by the American Jacob Snider, which was a breech-loader using an assembled cartridge, was both faster and more accurate. From 1866, they converted large numbers of P53s at the Enfield factory in England but retaining the original iron barrel, furniture, locks and hammer (the Mark I and Mark II Snider-Enfields, also known as “British Sniders”). By the time the British had got to the Mark III version, the rifles were being newly-made rather than converted, with steel barrels, flat nosed hammers and a latch locking breech block.

As your chart above indicates, the parent case for the Martini-Henry cartridge was a .577 Snider (an adaptation of that used for the .577 Snider-Enfield rifle). Early Snider rounds actually had a paper case with a metallic base, not unlike modern shotgun shells… full brass cases came later. The later Snider cartridges (brass-cased) had a small shoulder at the crimp but weren’t bottle-necked like those for the Martini-Henry, and had this specification:

Bullet diameter: 0.570 inches (14.5 mm)
Neck diameter: 0.602 inches (15.3 mm)
Base diameter: 0.660 inches (16.8 mm)
Rim diameter: 0.747 inches (19.0 mm)
Rim thickness: 0.065 inches (1.7 mm)
Case length: 2.0 inches (51 mm)
Overall length: 2.45 inches (62 mm)

I’m not 100% sure, but I think the early Sniders, including those with a paper case had a slightly larger slug at nominal .577 calibre (0.577 inches/14.7 mm) weighing 480 grains (31 grams) that matched the British rifle-musket conversions; as opposed to the 0.570 inch/14.5mm slug that weighed 450 grains (29 grams) referenced above for later commercial brass cases, but still nominally a .577 compatible cartridge.