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  • Solutrean/Clovis connection fact or fiction

    Solutrean/Clovis connection fact or fiction
    Posted by [chase]:

    Moderator Note: this thread was first posted in 2011 but failed to transfer across to the new forum when the software was updated, and so has been re-created manually.

    Many years ago I was in Colorado at the Lovland Stone age fair. That particular year Dr. Dennis Stanford from the Smithsonian was one of the guest speakers.(This also had an all star cast of speakers including Dr. George Frison but another story.)At the time, Dennis presented the Solutrean, Clovis connection. At first the thought was how in the world would this even be possiable, but I was there to learn and hear from those I respect. As growing up with all the text books suggesting that the right of passage went through the Bering Staights my thoughts were to hold onto this as the only fact. But the more I listen to what Dr. Stanford said on how this was possiable the more I sat up in the chair and hung on every word he said. For me it made sense from the oldest dates of Clovis sites being on the East coast, to the similar tool reduction of the points from both cultures. It was also plausable for me, by the means by which they would have traveled across an ice sheet. I sat there with the thought that if man did come from the Bering Straights from Siberia, would they have not experinced the same Ice cap and roughly the same distance but without the help of sea animals to feed off of. If I only had a cyrstal ball to tell me, but I don't, so is this a fact or is this fiction. I can only imagine. Those that disagree that this is possiable, I ask how did the Pyramid’s get built. If it was from the labor of men, then man has the ability to cross an ocean ice cap.

    Please excuse all mispelled words and grammer mistakes, but would love to here any thoughts on this subject.
    Chase


    Posted by [CMD ]:
    Chase, I'm personally pretty excited by the possibility. I know one of our forum members, can't remember who, has seen 2 Solutrean bifaces found off US Atlantic coast(?) I believe, think he saw them at one of Stanford's lectures. I think the subject of the peopling of the Americas is as exciting as it has ever been. What findings and theories stand the test of time remains to be seen, everything seems so fluid right now with pre-clovis sites more and more the focus. On the west coast, Arlington Springs Woman(once thought to be Arlington Springs Man), the remains of which were found on Santa Rosa Island in the Channel Islands, may be as old as 13,000 years. And sites slightly younger have been found on the Channel Islands, and may indicate a crossing along the Pacific Rim as well by people who also would have hunted the sea on a Pacific "kelp highway". See this article from last Spring:

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0303141540.htm

    I believe this map originates from archaeology.org. It shows the various hypothisized migration routes being considered these days.

    Click image for larger version

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    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

  • #2
    Posted by [greywolf22]:
    The Solutrean culture was short lived dating from 21,000 to 17,000 years ago in southwestern Europe. It was a Upper Paleolithic culture between the Aurignacian and Magdalenian cultures. The Solutrean culture was characterized by finely crafted tools, such as slender, leaf-shaped blades that look very similar to Clovis, as well as ornaments, carvings, and cave paintings.

    If Clovis dates to 14,000 BP, and Solutrean dates to 17,000 BP we have a window of 3,000 years between the two cultures. That lapse of time between when one culture died out and one came to life to me rules out the two being related.

    There is nothing stopping a sea faring culture similar to the Eskimos who live off fishing and killing animals from working their way around an ice pack, all it takes is a specialized skill set, but I do not think the Solutrean would be that culture as it was long dead before Clovis showed up.

    There are a lot of culture points that look similar to other culture points but that does not make them the same culture, it only means they figured out how to make a point based on Humans ability to make something out of nothing and the end product ended up looking similar.

    There is now coming to light that man has been here in the Americas far longer than 14,000 years but the tools are rather crude before Clovis came on the seen. I think Clovis technology for the early Americans was an epiphany to them, it changed the landscape of what they could now call a food source by allowing them to hunt large animals much more efficiently.
    Jack


    Posted by [gregszybala]:
    So has anyone read anything on the DNA testing that has been going on? When and if they get through the various Amerindian cultures we will know much more. The only problem, saw a documentary recently on the Cherokee Indians and their claim to having Jewish ancestry. They found that some had Jewish blood but could not determine if it was ancient to the Americas or if it was from intermingling with the Europeans who came after Columbus. Appears the only way to test will have to be from ancient burials. ?


    Posted by [greywolf22]:
    Greg
    I have Cherokee blood but not sure how much. My Great, great, grand mother was said to be 1/2 Cherokee but was blond and blue eyed so there was something else going on with that blood line for a long time before she came along.
    Jack


    Posted by [gregszybala]:
    Really makes you wonder.


    Posted by [greywolf22]:
    Greg
    We have been mixing up blood lines for as long as we have been moving from one area to another. It is only human to want to have a mate and if your style is not around the style around will generaly do. LOL.
    Jack


    Posted by [gregszybala]:
    You put it that way Jack, can't argue with that! Too many jokes about one too many drinks.

    I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

    Comment


    • #3
      Posted by [CMD ]:
      The biggest problem noted by other researchers regarding a Solutrean origin for clovis technology is the time difference, as Jack noted. Here is a good summary of Stanfords/Bradley's Solutrean origin theory. They believe the technological similarities between Solutrean/clovis are too close to be the result of independent invention. They also believe the pre-clovis dates from Cactus Hill and Meadowcroft bridge the time gap.
      They have a long way to go in proving the connection.

      http://www.neiu.edu/~circill/hageman...thatlantic.pdf

      Don't know why the link is broken. It's correct if you type it into your browser....

      (Note: link now corrected below)
      http://homepages.neiu.edu/~circill/h...thatlantic.pdf


      Posted by [Ftperry]:
      Sorry, but it does not work when I type it in my browser.....


      Posted by [Ftperry]:
      It should also be noted in this discussion that Michael Gramly's work at the Phil Stratton site produced OSL dating indicating a CUMBERLAND CULTURE presence at 17000BP.


      Posted by [CMD ]:
      Ftperry wrote:
      Sorry, but it does not work when I type it in my browser.....

      Yeah, I don't get it. I've looked at the url until I went cross eyed. Then I typed it into an email, mailed it to myself, and it worked fine. You might try that way, although that seems like a damn silly way to get there. If I can find another way.....
      Charlie


      Posted by [Butch Wilson]:
      www.neiu.edu/~circill/hageman/anth396/northatlantic.pdf
      Copy to browser worked for me..........


      Posted by [CMD]:
      Ftperry wrote:
      It should also be noted in this discussion that Michael Gramly's work at the Phil Stratton site produced OSL dating indicating a CUMBERLAND CULTURE presence at 17000BP.

      http://www.asaa-persimmonpress.com/n...umberland.html

      http://www.timesdaily.com/article/20...st-inhabitants
      (Link not working)


      Posted by [CMD]:
      >>CMD wrote:
      >Ftperry wrote:
      Sorry, but it does not work when I type it in my browser.....<
      Yeah, I don't get it. I've looked at the url until I went cross eyed. Then I typed it into an email, mailed it to myself, and it worked fine. You might try that way, although that seems like a damn silly way to get there. If I can find another way.....
      Charlie<<

      The first footnote at the bottom of this page provides a different link to the same article:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutrean_hypothesis
      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

      Comment


      • #4
        Posted by [CMD ]:
        Lawrence Straus is the leading opponent of the Solutrean/Clovis connection.
        Arguments against:

        http://www.projectpast.org/gvogel/Re...straus_dwd.pdf
        (Link not working)


        Posted by [painshill]:
        Wooooo! There are some big (and interesting) questions here, aren’t there? Apologies for coming late to the game, but it took a little while to assemble what I know (or believe) into a coherent summary. I offer this with the caution that there is so much research going into these topics, with suggestions and counter-suggestions appearing all the time, that unless you follow it closely your knowledge goes out of date rapidly. Nevertheless………..

        The conventional view since the 1920’s has been that, diverse as Native Americans are, they all originated from eastern Asia, arriving in North America on foot, beginning around 11,300 years ago in three waves of migration over the Bering land bridge that once linked Siberia with Alaska.

        North America was buried under ice sheets over a mile thick during the Pleistocene ice age, but for periods between 10,000 and 75,000 years ago the sea level was over 150 feet lower. Enough to expose the Bering land bridge. However, as far as we know, the fluctuating size of the eastern and western ice sheets left only two windows of opportunity for passage through an ice-free corridor between them: before 20,000 and after 12,000 years ago. Since many Clovis sites have ages that cluster around 11,000 years, this suggested the Clovis people migrated into North America during the second window and has reinforced the “Clovis first" hypothesis.

        In the 1980’s we had the “Greenberg hypothesis”. Stanford University linguist Joseph Greenberg, argued for three waves of migration beginning around 12,000 years ago, each giving rise to a distinct linguistic group. The “Na-Dene” (northwest coastal region plus a pocket of Apache and Navajo in the southwest); “Eskimo-Aleut” (northeast coastal region); and “Amerind” in the rest of the continent. The first two are accepted by most linguists, but Amerind remains controversial. The languages grouped here by Greenberg seem to be too diverse to be part of a single family in the view of his opponents.

        There has been an ongoing detailed study at Emory University of DNA from living Native Americans. Initially, four distinct lineages were found, termed A, B, C and D [Douglas Wallace, 1992]. These lineages are also found in Asian populations, but not in Europeans or Africans, which gave support to the theory that Native Americans have an ancestral link to Asia.

        Wallace found all four lineages in populations of Amerindian people; only lineage A in the Na-Dene group; and only lineages A and D in the Eskimo-Aleut group. This distribution is consistent with Greenberg's proposal of three waves of migration. Detailed analysis of the frequency of mutations suggested the times of migration for the three groups were 25,000 years ago for the Amerind and about 12,000 years ago for the Na-Dene and the Eskimo-Aleut.

        The dates fit very nicely with the estimated times of the two ice-free corridors, but the date for the Amerind is far too early to support Greenberg’s hypothesis completely. That probably doesn’t matter because the date is consistent with the amount of time required to produce the diversity of languages present in this group [Johanna Nichols, 1998] and acceptance of pre-Clovis sites no longer ties us to the second window for an ice-free corridor.

        The picture has grown more complicated as more data is gathered. Additional minor lineages have been found, so it’s not just four any more. All four major types - A, B, C and D - have been found in people from all three linguistic groups. However, lineages B, C and D are rare in the Na-Dene and lineages B and C are rare in the Eskimo-Aleut.

        This has led to the possible conclusion that there was a single migration, rather than three separate waves. A single group of genetically diverse people entered Alaska about 25,000 years ago, probably as a trickle of people over a period of a thousand years or so. Some of them headed south (the Amerinds), while others remained in isolated patches in the north. This latter group must have been living in a hostile environment surrounded by glaciers and their numbers shrank, but isolated populations persisted for thousands of years. These scattered groups finally bounced back and migrated to (mainly) northern regions. Their reduced genetic diversity would have produced the skewed distribution of lineages that we observe. [Andrew Merriwether, 1990’s].

        Wallace disagrees. He suggests that low frequencies of lineages B, C and D in the Na-Dene, and of B and C in the Eskimo-Aleut, are the result of the later interbreeding with Amerinds. Lineage A in the Na-Dene is only 9,500 years old while in the Amerind population it is close to 30,000 years. If both groups were descended from the same population, the A lineages should be the same age.

        Further work from Wallace’s team, published in 1998 was a big surprise. He found a new lineage, called X, in Amerindians from the Central Great Lakes region. Lineage X is also present (albeit at low frequency) in EUROPEAN populations, but is absent in Asians. He has ruled out the possibility of this arising from interbreeding between Native Americans and Europeans “post-Columbus" since no other European lineages were present. The same lineage has also been found in DNA from tooth enamel at a pre-Columbian burial site in Ilinois [Anne Stone, 1997].

        Wallace concludes: "It looks as if a European population moved up through Asia and was part of the wave of east Asian people who moved across the Bering land bridge." This must have occurred more than 30,000 years ago if the early date for entry into the Americas is correct. However, what he has not ruled out is the possibility that lineage X was indeed once present in Asian populations but has been lost via genetic diversity. If that were the case, we do not need to suppose that Europeans made it to the land bridge.

        Recent discoveries have added to the picture. The oldest evidence found of humans in North America came from the Paisley caves in Oregon [Dennis Jenkins, 2008]. Fossilised human poop(!!!), plus a few artefacts, were excavated from what seems to have been a latrine, carbon dated at 14,300 years old. Prior to that, the oldest human remains were bones from a couple of Clovis sites.

        The date is also broadly in line with the Monte Verde site in southern Chile, which is now generally accepted at around 14,600 years old, and suggests that humans certainly reached the Southern Americas around 1,200 years before the Clovis culture spread across North America. Dates for both sites have an uncertainty of a few hundred years, so they might well overlap, but it would have taken early settlers much longer to reach Monte Verde if they crossed the Bering land bridge from Asia.

        Although the pre-Clovis status of the Monte Verde site is no longer disputed and the site is rich in archaeological evidence (apart from the lack of human remains), it is important to remember that it is an isolated site. Only about thirty people lived on the sandy bank of a small creek in hide shelters in hunter-gatherer mode [Thomas Dillehay, 1977 through to 1985].

        Jenkins had the poop from the Paisley caves DNA tested but was concerned about possible contamination during his excavations, despite the fact that it was buried several feet underground. He struck lucky. All 14 samples he submitted were positive for human mitochondrial DNA, but 6 of them contained two distinctive genetic markers called A2 and B2, present in Native Americans but not in Europeans – or any of his co-workers. That would suggest pretty conclusively that the first people in North America (that we know of) were primarily of east-Asian ancestry, not Europeans or Africans.

        There is also genetic evidence that Native Americans may be descended from a single population that lived near the Bering land bridge for some time [Kari Schroeder, 2008]. Schroeder took DNA samples from various populations around the world, including two from the eastern edge of Siberia, 53 from other places in Asia and 18 Native American populations. Some 1,500 people in all, including 445 Native Americans.

        Schroeder was looking for a distinctive, repeating sequence of DNA found in a non-coding area of chromosome 9, known as the 9RA mutation. He found it in at least one member of all the Native American populations tested, and in both populations from eastern Siberia. By contrast, it was absent in all of the other Asian populations, including those from other parts of Siberia, from Mongolia or Japan.

        Schroeder suggests this points to a common ancestry from a specific location not too far from the Bering land bridge. He doesn’t discount the possibility of multiple migrations thousands of years apart, as sea levels and ice margins fluctuated.

        The main problem (if we accept the dates for ice-free corridors) is that any pre-Clovis migration must have happened at least 20,000 – 25,000 years ago. There is no archaeological evidence to support this, but: "It's a question of archaeological visibility… People entered a virgin land, rich in resources and space, and so they probably didn't stay in any one place very long, which is what you need to create archaeological visible sites… It could easily have taken 10,000 years or more before populations reached a level that would start to be detected on the radar screen” [David Meltzer, unknown date].

        So, what of the Solutrean connection? Well, the first thing to remember is that the Solutreans were not a “people” as such. Solutrean refers to an “industry” – a way of making tools to support a particular lifestyle in a specific area. The period concerned is about 17,000 – 22,000 years ago and the area concerned is Solutre-Pouilly in France.

        The discovery of a couple of possible Solutrean industry tools in North America does not in any way imply migration into North America on a large scale, would be my feeling. It doesn’t even imply the presence of the people who made the tools. In Upper Palaeolithic Europe, there is much evidence of aggressive competition and some evidence of trading or sharing of technology during the rise of Homo sapiens to become the dominant species. I would fully expect that these competing populations acquired desirable or useful tools from one another by both fair means and foul.

        The Solutrean industry began in Spain and spread to several parts of France and a little bit of Northern England. The dates for the industry don’t look like a good fit for either of the two ice-free corridors. We either have to accept that some of the population went walkabout 22,000 years ago onto an inhospitable sheet of ice (or progressively canoed round the edge of it), at just the time when they were establishing themselves in cosier spots in France. Or, that the remnants of their population (for whatever reason) left France 17,000 years ago and took 5,000 years or so to make the journey to the ice-free corridor when there was a second window. Doesn’t seem very likely to me.

        How about?: the Solutreans gradually integrated themselves into other populations in France, taking their tools and skills with them. Trading or thuggery resulted in some of those tools (or very similar ones using borrowed technology) coming into the hands of populations closer to the land bridge who are mostly, but not exclusively of Asian origin. Those tools get taken on the journey to America when the second land bridge opens up. Seems more likely, I think. Or, there’s a coincidence in some similarities of tool technologies between Clovis and Solutrean.

        There are also large gaps in time between the end of the Solutrean industry and the beginnings of the Clovis culture. Many specific and innovative features of tools from the Solutrean industry are not present in Clovis technologies. There is no evidence of any Solutrean seafaring skills or inclinations.
        Roger
        I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

        Comment


        • #5
          Posted by [greywolf22]:
          I know that Cumberland before Clovis and Clovis before Cumberland has been debated for a while, but there is no definitive evidence as far as carbon dating that shows this.
          If Cumberland came before Clovis then it means that Cumberland morphed into Clovis.
          Jack


          Posted by [phbarnesjr]:
          Great read Roger! Thanks. This thread and this topic is most interesting and controversial, and I'm looking forward to more discovery and theories. Thanks again everyone. Paul


          Posted by [chase]:
          Wow! This is great. Thank you Roger. Jack as always great imput.


          Posted by [Ftperry]:
          Jack,
          Check the link provided earlier by CMD and you can see the carbon dating data from the Duchess Quarry Cave site showing the earlier age of Cumberland. Obviously, carbon reminants are difficult to find from 17000BP so the newer technologies are emerging. OSL dating was used at the Cumberland Phil Stratton in Kentucky and showed 17000BP. CMD's second link is a newspaper account of Gramly digging a Colbert Co., AL site earlier this year. Interestingly, there is a significant Clovis presence in the same region and comparative aging is possible with barium measuring technology. Gramly reports that Cumberland is older but is later joined by Clovis indicating the two cultures existed simultaneously for a period. Gramly also states that Cumberland Culture moved north from Alabama, Tennessee and Kentucky splitting into the Barnes Culture moving into Michigan and the present areas of Lake Erie and the Folsom Culture moving west of the Mississippi River.


          Posted by [CMD ]:
          If the right coast Solutrean/Clovis connection around the Atlantic rim is not gaining traction among scholars, maybe a Japanese/left coast connection around the Pacific rim will

          http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...4061821100125X

          I believe the lead author here, Jon Erlandson of the University of Oregon was the first to suggest a Pacific rim "kelp highway" migration route. I would love to see the various stemmed points from around the Pacific rim that this article refers to, but I'm not about to pay the price asked for the privlege.

          Erlandson and Torben Rick of the Smithsonian were the lead authors of a study that appeared in the journal Science which described the dates and artifacts obtained from 3 sites on the Channel Islands, referred to earlier in this thread. The paper claims a date range of 11,200-12,200 bp for these sites. Arlington Springs Woman, from Santa Rosa island may be a bit older at 13,000 years.

          http://science.sciencemag.org/conten.../1181.abstract

          The photo shows artifacts they excavated at the date levels stated. I showed this photo on another forum and the reaction from some collectors out west was "no way, Jose, those points are archaic". Well, what do I know, I just don't think they got the dates out of thin air. Just more food for thought.
          Charlie

          Click image for larger version

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          I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

          Comment


          • #6
            Posted by [Paleolution]:
            This is a great subject that we will never stop learning about. I personally find it IMPOSSIBLE that sea faring people could miss North America. The fact that every other continent in the world had been explored and somehow, some way, the western hemisphere was completely missed until 14,000 years ago??? The sea levels are hiding clues to who was here first. I don't think there is one answer, I think there were dozens of cultures coming to the Americas for thousands of years before the "clovis" culture, whether or not we can connect those cultures across the seas is another issue all together. I also saw the presentation by Dr. Stanford, I was very impressed with his views and knowledge. Good thread, good thread...


            Posted by [phbarnesjr]:
            Paleolution wrote:
            This is a great subject that we will never stop learning about. I personally find it IMPOSSIBLE that sea faring people could miss North America. The fact that every other continent in the world had been explored and somehow, some way, the western hemisphere was completely missed until 14,000 years ago??? The sea levels are hiding clues to who was here first. I don't think there is one answer, I think there were dozens of cultures coming to the Americas for thousands of years before the "clovis" culture, whether or not we can connect those cultures across the seas is another issue all together. I also saw the presentation by Dr. Stanford, I was very impressed with his views and knowledge. Good thread, good thread...

            Tyson, That is so damn true! The oceans have all the answers hidden from us knowing who, and when. Great statement. Thanks, Paul


            Posted by [CMD ]:
            I remember when Meadowcroft was first in the news, in the 70's. Whatever the truth of the matter, and it was certainly controversial, it set me to thinking outside the box where the prehistory of the Americas is concerned. I've never stopped, but I really never knew I would live to see the day when mainstream archaeologists in the Americas, but esp. here in the United States, would finally admit there is much more complexity to the problem then they were willing to admit for a long time. We are living through a paradigm shift in that respect, the proverbial sea change in thinking, no pun intended. I've been waiting my whole life it seems for these engaging times in American prehistory. It's difficult to crack an old paradigm or accepted way of thinking. Especially in academics, you best have tenure before you float "out of the box" ideas. Wherever it all ends in our deepening understanding of how and when and where from humanity arrived in the Americas, I'm just happy I lived to see the true beginning of that understanding.
            Charlie


            Posted by [Bill]:
            Jack, I know you will enjoy the soon-to-be-released book on this subject by Dennis Standford and Bruce Bradley. They have determined there is site evidence that suggests there is a time overlap between the Spanish Solutrean and Clovis.
            Check this out!

            https://gustavus.edu/events/nobelcon...rd-lecture.php


            Posted by [greywolf22]:
            Steven
            Nice information. That opens up a new can of worms for us to learn from. LOL.
            Jack


            Posted by [greywolf22]:
            CMD wrote:
            If the right coast Solutrean/Clovis connection around the Atlantic rim is not gaining traction among scholars, maybe a Japanese/left coast connection around the Pacific rim will
            http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...4061821100125X
            I believe the lead author here, Jon Erlandson of the University of Oregon was the first to suggest a Pacific rim "kelp highway" migration route. I would love to see the various stemmed points from around the Pacific rim that this article refers to, but I'm not about to pay the price asked for the privlege.
            Erlandson and Torben Rick of the Smithsonian were the lead authors of a study that appeared in the journal Science which described the dates and artifacts obtained from 3 sites on the Channel Islands, referred to earlier in this thread. The paper claims a date range of 11,200-12,200 bp for these sites. Arlington Springs Woman, from Santa Rosa island may be a bit older at 13,000 years.
            http://science.sciencemag.org/conten.../1181.abstract
            The photo shows artifacts they excavated at the date levels stated. I showed this photo on another forum and the reaction from some collectors out west was "no way, Jose, those points are archaic". Well, what do I know, I just don't think they got the dates out of thin air. Just more food for thought.
            Charlie

            The shape of the litchis in these pictures are similar to points found in Texas called Perdize and points found Sub Sierra Africa. The cultures are different but the thought process that made them is similar and transverses thousands of years and miles.
            Jack


            Posted by [2338Sport]:
            Chase, Barry Atwater here. I have a cabin on the Nottoway River, 700 feet of high bluff river front, 22 acres, Sussex County, VA, about two miles down river from what I have been told is Catus Hill. I have been finding alot of artifacts this year, mainly on a 800 acre farm across from my property. I found a point about 5 years ago on Route 40 just over the Sussex line in Dinwiddie County. The point came out of a pile of sand from a sand pit in Sussex. I think I know which pit which is about 3 miles from my property. I have a blog on the point which I think may be pre-paleo. I have not seen the point in any book that I have. I did see a simular point on the show, Ice Age Discoveries, iceage.pwnet.org/. Check out the point. Pics do not do it justice. I am thinking about doing a dig on my property this fall. Barry Atwater


            Posted by [CMD ]:
            Barry, thanks for the great link! BTW, I think you mean pre-clovis, not pre-paleo. Everything's paleo at that age. At any rate, I checked out the photos on your blog. Point looks paleo but I could not enlarge the pics to get a really good look. Just a suggestion here. If you were to start a new thread on the forum, with a subject line along the lines of "Pre-clovis point from Virginia??", I'm sure you would get much feedback from the knowledgable people here. Just include photos large enough to let folks see it good. Certainly looks like a nice point whatever its' ID.
            Charlie


            Posted by [CMD ]:
            Nice thread.


            Posted by [Ridgerunner]:
            Thanks Roger. I have just finished Bradley and Stanfords new book. Your comments appear well researched and are very informative. Rob
            I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

            Comment


            • #7
              Posted by [MOpointsplz ]:
              so i know this is an old post but maybe someone will see this. I was watching vids on youtube and came across this one. Hope you enjoy

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=maziRFPYU14
              (Link not working)


              Posted by [Bill]:
              Drs. Sanford and Bradley have nailed it and have discovered where Clovis originated. Across Atlantic Ice is a masterful explaination of the likely Clovis origins.

              The nexus between Solutrean and Clovis is in biface manufacture and Overshot flake removals. Early classic Clovis Points feature Outre' Passe' technology both during the Solutrean and Clovis periods (overshot flake removals).

              This technology is right out of the Cantabrian Coastal Spanish Solutrean.

              The evidence of Clovis = Solutrean is continuing to accumulate in the Del Marva Peninsula (Delaware, Maryland, Virginia).


              Posted by [Bill]:
              There is no time line gap between Solutrean and Clovis. Solutrean sites in Cantabria Spain have erased any time gaps.
              This is explained extremely well in Across Atlantic Ice.


              Posted by [gregszybala]:
              Here we go again!


              Posted by [painshill]:
              gregszybala wrote:
              Here we go again!

              Not venturing out personally. Ice too thin!


              Posted by [Doug Humbarger]:
              My wifes Great Grandmother was full Cherokee. That makes my wife 1/8. She is blond as they come. Go figure.


              Posted by [chase]:
              chase wrote:
              Many years ago I was in Colorado at the Lovland Stone age fair. That particular year Dr. Dennis Stanford from the Smithsonian was one of the guest speakers.(This also had an all star cast of speakers including Dr. George Frison but another story.)At the time, Dennis presented the Solutrean, Clovis connection. At first the thought was how in the world would this even be possiable, but I was there to learn and hear from those I respect. As growing up with all the text books suggesting that the right of passage went through the Bering Staights my thoughts were to hold onto this as the only fact. But the more I listen to what Dr. Stanford said on how this was possiable the more I sat up in the chair and hung on every word he said. For me it made sense from the oldest dates of Clovis sites being on the East coast, to the similar tool reduction of the points from both cultures. It was also plausable for me, by the means by which they would have traveled across an ice sheet. I sat there with the thought that if man did come from the Bering Straights from Siberia, would they have not experinced the same Ice cap and roughly the same distance but without the help of sea animals to feed off of. If I only had a cyrstal ball to tell me, but I don't, so is this a fact or is this fiction. I can only imagine. Those that disagree that this is possiable, I ask how did the Pyramid’s get built. If it was from the labor of men, then man has the ability to cross an ocean ice cap.
              Please excuse all mispelled words and grammer mistakes, but would love to here any thoughts on this subject.
              Chase

              This is only a theory, I know that there will be great debate on this subject for years to come. Charlie I find your prophetic insight scary. I understand that lines have been drawn both pro's and con's. The book is out and from there the battle lines can be drawn. I am neither for or against this subject, it simply has no hard fact evidence. This subject has been on other posts from time to time and I am surprised that I have seen this return. Mods please lock this thread if you see fit.


              Posted by [painshill]:
              Hi Chase

              I know how you feel, but I really don't see cause to lock the thread. The Solutrean connection is indeed a theory... and I don't use that word with the intention of belittling Stanford or Bradley since they also refere to it as a theory. To some extent we risk going over old ground until more evidence in support (or against) appears. I wouldn't rule out either possibility and as long as folks play nice about their respective views they're entitled to have their say.


              Posted by [CMD ]:
              >>chase wrote:
              chase wrote:
              Many years ago I was in Colorado at the Lovland Stone age fair. That particular year Dr. Dennis Stanford from the Smithsonian was one of the guest speakers.(This also had an all star cast of speakers including Dr. George Frison but another story.)At the time, Dennis presented the Solutrean, Clovis connection. At first the thought was how in the world would this even be possiable, but I was there to learn and hear from those I respect. As growing up with all the text books suggesting that the right of passage went through the Bering Staights my thoughts were to hold onto this as the only fact. But the more I listen to what Dr. Stanford said on how this was possiable the more I sat up in the chair and hung on every word he said. For me it made sense from the oldest dates of Clovis sites being on the East coast, to the similar tool reduction of the points from both cultures. It was also plausable for me, by the means by which they would have traveled across an ice sheet. I sat there with the thought that if man did come from the Bering Straights from Siberia, would they have not experinced the same Ice cap and roughly the same distance but without the help of sea animals to feed off of. If I only had a cyrstal ball to tell me, but I don't, so is this a fact or is this fiction. I can only imagine. Those that disagree that this is possiable, I ask how did the Pyramid’s get built. If it was from the labor of men, then man has the ability to cross an ocean ice cap.
              Please excuse all mispelled words and grammer mistakes, but would love to here any thoughts on this subject.
              Chase<
              This is only a theory, I know that there will be great debate on this subject for years to come. Charlie I find your prophetic insight scary. I understand that lines have been drawn both pro's and con's. The book is out and from there the battle lines can be drawn. I am neither for or against this subject, it simply has no hard fact evidence. This subject has been on other posts from time to time and I am surprised that I have seen this return. Mods please lock this thread if you see fit.<<

              Chase, my "prophesy" was my idea of a joke. It was just me being a clown. I edited that comment after the thread was re-started. I was teasing a certain someone, my bad. And I like the guy, just too enthusiastic to be impartial IMHO. I'm going to see if I can erase that comment. Agree with Roger, no need to lock this thread. I'm sorry, Chase! Poor joke on my part......
              I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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              • #8
                Thank you Roger.
                Great summation on the 13th.
                Much appreciated.
                David

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                • #9
                  This...

                  Posted by [Paleolution]:
                  This is a great subject that we will never stop learning about. I personally find it IMPOSSIBLE that sea faring people could miss North America. The fact that every other continent in the world had been explored and somehow, some way, the western hemisphere was completely missed until 14,000 years ago??? The sea levels are hiding clues to who was here first. I don't think there is one answer, I think there were dozens of cultures coming to the Americas for thousands of years before the "clovis" culture, whether or not we can connect those cultures across the seas is another issue all together. I also saw the presentation by Dr. Stanford, I was very impressed with his views and knowledge. Good thread, good thread...

                  Soulutrean people would have encountered the already existing culture(Bone and wood/whopper chopper ) here.\

                  There were people in the Americas before the last ice age migration. IMHO

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