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  • #16
    Pre columbian  pic,s from the web

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    • #17
      They are clay and seemingly in pretty good condition given the potential age.

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      • #18
        Do you think that the paint on the clay was from someone trying to refurbish them? I was hoping to figure out origin so if they were of any value to the indigenous people that they came from, I could return them.

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        • #19
          They were done in terracotta also I don't know that you will ever find out that ? But they do sell for a good bit far as dollars go no in my oppinion on them being refurbished

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          • #20
            Thank you for your responses. Do you think that the ancestors of the people who made them would want them back?

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            • #21
              ... Or should I just try to sell them?

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              • #22
                Maybe incense burners?

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                • #23
                  I don't see anything that says incense burner. I would still hold to them being spindle whorls. The hole out of the bottom end is a bit small but bear in mind what I said earlier. These items were frequently made for their symbolic importance without any intention that they would ever be used for spinning yarn.
                  They became a symbol of wealth (and of the female contribution to society) and were made for that purpose only in later times. Hence their use as a form of currency (and a display of wealth when worn as beads) and were also specifically made as items to be used as grave goods.
                  It's highly commendable of you to even think about the possibility of returning them to the cultural people that made them. If it was the mention of the possibility of "grave goods" that pricked your conscience, in all honesty I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's only a possibility. In any case, "grave goods" is a rather all-embracing term. All kinds of ordinary, small but significant objects were buried with people's remains including coloured pebbles, pieces of mica, shells and so on.
                  Frequently (and especially in South American cultures), it is believed that small items belonging to the deceased were buried without any remains (or perhaps with just a small fragment of bone) as a little commemorative tribute near where the person lived... the remains having been being buried elsewhere - perhaps even at an earlier date. If you found something from such a group of small items you might not even recognise the purpose.
                  I don't know how you would track the owning culture. I'm not sure who made those items but they were widely produced. I don't see anything that reliably says "Maya" or any culture. If the story was that they were found somewhere along the southern borders of California/Arizona/New Mexico and the adjacent Mexican border I wouldn't see any reason to doubt that.
                  I also don't think anyone has applied anything to that after it was made. Rubbing pigments into the impressed decoration, painting and wash-glazing were common practices.
                  I would suggest that the overt conical shape suggests a later date than pre-Columbian. Early examples tended to be bulbous in shape. It was a while before it was discovered that a true cone (and a double-cone like a child's top) was the most efficient shape for distributing centrifugal force when the spindle was rotated.
                  I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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                  • #24
                    Thank you Painshill. The story goes that they were gifts given to missionaries from an indigenous tribe.  I was told that these missionaries carried them with them for generations as thery made their way through California when it was still Mexico. Then remained in California until the mission eventually disbanded of all of their artifacts, this set was  given to the person who gave them to me. I have had them for awhile but really, I no longer want to keep them because they remind me of the person who gave them to me. These are special little spindles. I feel like I would like them to go to whomever would cherish them the most. They are in excellent condition and if I could reunite them with the tribe that they came from or a museum, that would be my first choice. If not, then I guess I would sell them. What are your thoughts?

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                    • #25
                      I don’t see any reason to doubt the story you were given but (unless you have more precise information) it doesn’t pin down the culture who made them. That style with those geometric lines and circles (sometimes referred to as the “eye” design) is fairly generic and might be from the Maya, or from an Aztec culture. Aztec people were not of a single ethnic group and the term includes most of the peoples that lived in central Mexico, including – notably – the Mexica. It could be a Nahua item (Aztec or Toltec), or any one of the multitudinous cultures of Mexico depending on where exactly it came from.
                      I can’t really help you on which museums might be interested but – in general – most museums sadly don’t accept items (even as a donation) without provenance information and larger museums are likely to have numerous spindle whorl types in their collections anyway. A small provincial museum might have a more welcoming attitude and a gap in their display items.
                      I keep six honest serving-men (they taught me all I knew); Their names are What and Why and When and How and Where and Who.

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