Turtle Effigy found in Missouri

[Ericbryson7]

My name is Eric and about 4 years ago I found a turtle Effigy in Cedar County Missouri on my girlfriend's land I showed it to people but got shot down immediately saying it was probably modern or a mark Tussinger eccentric back in April I went up to the MSU campus and met with one of the archaeologist there he told me that it was made of Burlington chert and has been heat-treated he then told me to go to the Missouri Archeology Society that was holding a convention in the Oasis Hotel back in April everyone there was astounded by it I met one of the archaeologist there and he use this lens to tell that it had not had any use in was probably ceremonial and that he guessed it to be well over 800 years old. I'm reaching out here wondering if anybody else has seen any Turtle effigies or if anyone has seen any heat treatment like this on a point before

[Ericbryson7]

I have more pictures in higher-quality I just couldn't upload them because of the picture parameters

[Kyflintguy]

Hi Eric,
I deleted the duplicate post for you. You will get some more replies soon so please be patient.

It does look like possible heated Burlington and has an old look to it. I'm going to ponder it for a bit and see of I can find some links here to related material and get back with you...

[Kyflintguy]

https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/general-discussion-gc5/artifact-questions-answers-gc9/94048-turtle-authentic

Looks like we've seen them here before and they are categorized in the same genre as 'flint thunderbird effigies' as modern items. Turtle effigies do exist however they are generally made from carved hardstone. I think if you found it someone seeded your sight with fraudulent material.

Did you get the names of those proffessionals or anything in writing?

I've found that proffessionals archaeologist don't always have there finger on the pulse of the fakers market so to speak because its not something that is relevant to what they do wich is analyze absolute authentic materials from controlled excavations. Generally the only time they encounter a fake is when someone brings them one looking for validation... And they are human and often I imagine may say "yeah oh wow, amazing!" Like anyone clueless would. But I'm sure they immediately head to there computers and research the subject to no end and find the truth to wich they shake there heads and chuckle and sigh... Lol

[Kyflintguy]

I find it odd though that you had it validated by "professional archaeologist" yet you still seek more information about it... So you got the "proffesional" opinion and you now have this collectors opinion. I tend to agree with the folks who likened it to the early Mack Tussinger work. And I mind you the comments of the people who responded in the link I provided for you stating that "flint turtle effigies" are fake, are very knowledgable collectors. Cliff j is the president of the AACA (Authentic Artifact Collectors Assosiaction). And Pkfrey is a well studied collector with lots of experience in authentication. And of course a few others we all know around here as pretty reliable sources of information...

[Ericbryson7]

At the time I'm trying to find time to go up to see Jim Bennett because I've been recommended by several people to go meet him and I have been trying to get in contact with Matt Rowe curator at the Native American Museum and he wrote a really good paper on the Hopewell artifacts that have Burlington chert heat-treatment I've recently found his Facebook and would like to contact him whenever I get some time to meet up with him everything I have said is exactly as they have told me the person I met at MSU campus is named Bill Meadows and pretty sure he is more than willing to talk to you about it and the guy at the Missouri archaeological Society convention that I mainly talk to for a while is named Neil lopinot he was the one that looked over the artifacts for any signs of use I was told in the meantime by both of them to post this as much and as widely as possible to get as many people to see it and get as much information about

[Kyflintguy]

Did you notice how the form and make as well as the material were so similar to the one I posted in the link? Almost like they were made by the same person lol. You are free to form your own opinion of it. Matt Rowe drops in here every once in a while I think, so maybe he will Chime in. Good luck in your quest!

[Ericbryson7]

This is the only other photos I can really find that even matches my turtle I've even tried to contact this Museum about how they got this piece with no luck and the second one is from the Duck River cash in Tennessee

[Kyflintguy]

Yeah I see there are plenty of examples out there but that really doesn't help validate anything. I've seen and heard of plenty of fake items ending up in museums. Shoot im within 20 minutes drive of a little museum that has "flint effigies" and "flint fish hooks"
and we all know they are fakes... The fact of the matter is that many of those were produced in the early to mid 1900s, they ended up in collections everywhere and are still being sold and displayed as authentic... I can assure you that the item shown in the old barn auctions page is NOT from the actual Duck River Cache...

[Ericbryson7]

I was confused when I saw this comment so I went back and looked through it and yes I was very wrong it was the work Mounds in Tennessee 8” x 4 ¾” Chert Turtle Effigy from the Work Mounds, Tenn. This artifact or one example similar to this one is pictured in Legends of Prehistoric Art #1 page 251, Onkens Book – a photo of this turtle included taken from a book stating that it was from the King Collection http://csasi.org/2016_october_journa...er_journal.htm

[Ericbryson7]

Yes I do see the see the similarities I even saw that came from a collection from Missouri makes me wonder where they found it but I have yet to see heat treatment like on my artifact especially on the front how it just has the little patches of the pink stones

[JoshinMO]

Heat treated Burlington is usually pink, Nice Find! Now, I see how this Topic is going, and to be honest The Eccentric's like Turtle's and Lizard's I have been a bit skeptical of Those Myself. But Who know's?

[Ron Kelley]

Hey Eric, I believe that the turtle is modern. You asked about heat-treatment. I don't know why the professionals didn't explain heat-treatment but I can tell you what I have seen. Heat treated ancient chert artifacts are abundant. The ancient people heated the rock to make it easier to knapp. Several flintknappers on this site have done the same. Heat treated rock tends to flake better but if overheated some lithic material becomes brittle. Another side advantage of heat-treatment is that it brings out colors that were not visible in the raw rock. I hope this helps you.

[Ron Kelley]

Hey Eric, This is one of my modern keokuk burlington knives. The spall was heat-treated before I knapped the blade.

[Ericbryson7]

They definitely explain all that to me but I still don't understand how the little Stones were left on the front without it like falling off or getting chipped off or even how it's wrapped around the foot and the belly

[Ericbryson7]

And most of the heat-treated pieces I see I see pink around the whole piece but there's only pink on those little spots and down the back I guess what I'm asking is there a way to just specifically heat treat certain parts

[Ron Kelley]

Hey Eric, Sometimes the color goes deep into the stone and sometimes it is very shallow. If you look closely you will see where a flake scar has removed some of the color. I hope that helps.