Solutrean-American Artifacts

[Guest]

Moderator Note: Posts marked as coming from a user called "Guest" were from the user "David Stone Sweet" (as indicated in his tag at the bottom of the posts). He was ultimately banned from the forum and his name removed from the user database, resulting in his remaining posts being attributed under the default user name of "Guest".


I sent Mike Frank, an associate of Dr Stanford's, the images of four points I could not reconcile with the types known from the region. Reading Across Atlantic Ice a couple of times and doing what research I could into Dr Darrin Lowery's recent discoveries, I just felt these were worth a look at by someone who actually knows.... I received the following reply:
Hello David,
Wow, these are fantastic! Has Dennis seen these? They look just like some of the Spanish Solutrean pieces we have in the lab, as well as the stuff from Smith Mtn, VA and other sites that are showing old dates past Clovis. Dennis is visiting Spain right now, but if he hasn’t seen this I will show up right away when he gets back. I love these pieces. Can you tell me where these were found?
Mike
Find data for the largest two: recovered by scallop boat dredge off haven bar buoy on the Chesapeake Bay and traded "as the boat was moored" at the dock to Mark Small (boat captain was a classmate of Mark's)
Small er examples were found by Mark himself and were recovered along a stretch of broken shoreline from the southern tip of Gwynn's Island to Bethel Beach. The channel running from the shore, and ancient bed of the Piankatank River and Queens Creek/Milford Haven which leads to the Susquehanna River's ancient bed at Haven Bar Buoy, off from which these larger blades came

I am deeply stoked!
Mike Frank, owner of OCCOQUAN PALEOTECHNICS ( www.occpaleo.com ) , starred in the History Channel movie about Clovis People. Mike was the knapper making the Clovis point! Mike was also at the Gywnns' Island Museum that day with Dr Stanford and the rest of his team, when the two large Solutrean blades were recognized in the late Mark Small collection.
Mike works with Dr Stanford and was responsible for the casting of the Mark Small blades for the Paleo conference in NM in 2012.

The whole assemblage of Solutrean American artifacts from the late Mark Small collection is shown below

[Guest]

[Reflector]

I think this... if those are Solutrean culture artifacts, those same peoples would of moved to Fla/S. Ga. at some point. Sooner more than later
The ice would have made sure of that. Thanks for posting

The smaller of the two large blades is made from a yellow/red banded rhyolite known from the NC/SC region; the larger example sourced to a quarry-site in PA(*) that has produced another known example, the famed Cinmar blade.

>>>*I HAVE HAD CONFLICTING REPORTS OF MATERIAL FOR THE LARGER BLADE. I wish now I had kept track of the many articles I've read. One alluded to its being a match for Cinmar's lithic material and source, now another report says quartzite. I have relied upon apparently unclear information regards this. I'll be looking deeper into it....

[Kyflintguy]

Im a bit confused here, are the points you refer to pictured in the second post of this thread? Are these personal finds of yours? What specific attributes about those points lead you, and others to believe they are related to the solutrean tool kit?
They are very nice triangular pp/k, just curious about what the signifigant difference is with these that make the "solutrean" alarm go off? Do you have any images of the examples from Spain that you believe those are similar too? Thanks!

[Guest]

All artifacts shown in the two posts were recovered by the late Mark Small, of Gwynn's Island, VA

I strongly recommend "Across Atlantic Ice" for greater details in understanding the relationships between Spanish Solutrean and American Solutrean artifacts--an easy read by my standards, and very easy to understand.

One factor was that I could not type these for anything else, and I've been doing this for nearly 30 years. I went quite well out of my way to try to type these--comparisons with other types was not productive. I had at first lumped these with Jacks Reefs, but I cannot reconcile flaking to jacks Reef technology--these are neither Jacks Reef or Pee-Dee pentagonals, nor are they in the flaking-styles of any woodland triangles I've seen here before. The details gleaned from research of both published works and pictured artifacts: flaking and form, basal style, etc present attributes suggesting to me that these were something important, and might possess a link with Solutrean material...the bipoint is an especially nice example re: Use of an outre' pass flake to produce a Solutrean point.

Mike Frank's acclamation of these is to be taken quite seriously--As a part of Dr Stanford's team, flaking analysis falls in large part to his office--he makes all the casts, drawings, flaking studies, etc

I'm still trying to catch up with those who are ding the actual field researches--next on my list of pubs to buy is Dr Bradley's exhaustively comprehensive "Clovis Technology"; which deals in far greater depth re: bone and ivory technologies--which studies btw support the comparisons drawn in "Across Atlantic Ice"

For now, these are awaiting Smithsonian documentation and detailed flaking studies, casting, as additions to the growing bank of data

At present, it is before the board of directors of the Gwynns Island Museum to seek funding to acquire these 6 artifacts, given the museum's relationship to Cinmar and Mark Small having been born and raised there--a native son whose wish was to bequeath these artifacts to the community museum. Promotional considerations are being discussed. I hope these will go to the museum, which has an already long and productive relationship with Dr Stanford and his team

The Chesapeake Bay seems to have been a major focal point, the ancient Susquehanna River basin and the Norfolk Trench's shorelines producing artifacts dredged up, as well as actually being found eroding out of strata dated from pre-Clovis back the Solutrean time period. Artifacts are being excavated on islands in the Chesapeake Bay--even a kill-site in a salt marsh bearing pre- as well as Clovis and later faunal remains

[gregszybala]

I;m still confused. You need to provide us a bit more info and irrefutable evidence than, he said.
So none of the pictures you posted are of the ones you're talking about? And like Kyflintguy I question the difference that qualifies the triangulars Solutrean? You can find the same style, shapes, sizes, knapping here in the Midwest.

[CMD]

Are the large bipoints possible Boats Blades? The smaller points remind me of Cactus Hill pre-Clovis points, if memory serves me. No doubt an exciting region for pre-Clovis, but I think few of us here are privy to the research going on there actually.

Boats Blades are not flaked outre' passe style

[Guest]

LOL, ALL of the images, not 'none' of them.... As for irrefutable evidence, might you suggest a better authority than what is comprised of Dr Stanford's team? I can dare to state as fact there is virtually no one better versed in Solutrean technologies. I have yet to see a single woodland triangle nor any type of pentagonal whose flaking resembles these examples, nor can I reconcile these to any type I've researched to date'. I am still researching Solutrean flaking patterns As more evidence is accrued I will post it....as a post script, I leave you with "Do not believe what I say, Research It." Spanish Solutrean points pictured below

[CMD]

Sounds like the two large pieces were already seen by Stanford and Bradley. I can see those two large bipoints in the photo from the Santa Fe conference. So, I take it there are 4 you want Stanford/Bradley to see, and you have shown the 3 that are triangular in the second post, plus the smallest bipoint in the first post.
Those 4 were found in the area shown on the map. That's how I understand the pieces I am looking at. It was described in a fairly confusing manner, and required sorting out. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Guest]

You got it. The day I arranged for the collection to be shown at the GI museum is the same day Dr Stanford's team presented Dean Parker with an exacting cast of the Cinmar blade, the original of which he had donated to the Smithsonian in the formalized ceremony that day. Dr Stanford's team consisted of several whom I did not know, however, Dr Lowery, Dr Stanford and his fiance (now wife) and Mike Frank were among those surveying this collection. After studies and research, I questioned the four smaller pieces and sent a slew of images to Mike Frank, who offered the comments first posted. I spoke with Dr's Stanford and Lowery for over 6 hours while we all sorted through Mark's and others' collections

[Reflector]

Personally having recovered over 100 paleo points/ . 1 arguably being the finest ever found. Quality of workmanship aside.
This is the absolute oldest point/ I`ve ever found. Catus??

Can you photograph this example to show shadow and highlight to illuminate the flaking? I use full sun photography, hand-held to tilt point the right way while focusing with camera in other hand. Where was this found?

Several sites have produced straight to slightly indented base points of pre-clovis age. What is the latest on Topper Site? Anyone?

[Guest]

[Reflector]

Better?

[Guest]

Very nice piece--You should research this one, for sure...send pics to Mike Frank whose email can be found at www.occpaleo.com

[clovisoid]

Reflector, are you calling it a Miller point? That seems to be the official name that archaeologists have settle upon for the cluster of non-fluted little points from Topper, Meadowcroft, and other early sites.

What's the context & location of the find?

This link won't bog anyone down with scientific data, but it's got a couple of nice pictures of Miller points and some background if someone wants to read up on them.

[Hoss]

sorry wrong place wrong comment deleted by writer.